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Comment by canoebuilder | Hacker News Reader

If you externalize the costs of verifying that to third parties, you lose properties that make Bitcoin

Isn't that what "off-chain transactions" and the "Lightning Network" are?

Lighting Network is a trustless protocol

If lightning network includes tech that can support billions of transactions, can it be used without bitcoin? Why not use lighting with an uncongested coin?

Yes, any coin that has segwit or a comparable fix for malleability can use lightning. Litecoin is already supported. You can even have atomic swaps between both over lightning channels.

Bitcoin is the most popular with the most resources behind it, so it makes sense to leverage off it. There's nothing stopping similar networks occurring on other coins.

Are there any real world implementations of LN?

Can it operate on it's own, or does it need to be a layer on top of a cryptocoin network?

What incentive do LN node operators have to operate?

Yes, there are three interoperable implementations

https://cdecker.github.io/lightning-integration/

It runs on top of Bitcoin-like Blockchains that have segwit or something comparable.

If you run a LN node you can charge fees for routing payments.

If I pay for something using LN am I going to find it a superior experience to paying with cash or card, or am I going to find it a cumbersome experience for which I am charged an exorbitant fee?

The goal is to make it simple and inexpensive. Since it supports microtransactions in the sub-cent range and is irreversible, it would beat credit cards in those regards.

The most expensive step would be opening a channel, but there is work on reducing that cost.

There is upfront work (first you need some bitcoin, then you need to make an on-chain transaction to open a payment channel) but after that, lightning payments are trustless, instant, and with small fees (it's designed to support micro-payments).

But right now this is still VERY early in development.

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