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Comment by Steko | Hacker News Reader

I've played Clash Royale since global release, most of that time as f2p, and I'd argue it is not remotely p2w:

(1) tournaments, challenges, friendly matches are all played at tournament card levels which are quite easy to reach as f2p (and friendly and special challenges level new players up to the tournament levels).

(2) in 2v2, by far the most fun game mode for me, card levels are massively less important since there's no ladder.

(3) the 1v1 ladder is not a pure skill matchup but still finds everyone a range where they have essentially a 50% win rate based on a combination of progress and skill.

(4) yes the top of the ladder players have almost all spent a lot of money but most of the playerbase of any game isn't serious about being on the very top of the leaderboard. A smaller factor is that the most talented f2p players are sponsored with max decks and stop grinding f2p challenges.

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I played clash for 18 months. You even say yourself that it's p2w:

> (3) the 1v1 ladder is not a pure skill matchup but still finds everyone a range where they have essentially a 50% win rate based on a combination of progress and skill.

> (4) yes the top of the ladder players have almost all spent a lot of money but most of the playerbase of any game isn't serious about being on the very top of the leaderboard. A smaller factor is that the most talented f2p players are sponsored with max decks and stop grinding f2p challenges.

That's p2w. If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w. That's what p2w means. Just because there are modes that are not p2w doesn't mean it's not p2w. The drop rate of legenadaries is so low it took me ~5 months to get a bandit from a free chest. Rewards are also increased the higher your ladder ranking makes the p2w aspect even worse.

After 18 months I had 1 level 3 legendary with a smattering of level 1s and 2s. It would take me a few more YEARS to get one to max (level 5), and they were releasing more legendaries and epics than commons and rares further decreasing the odds of being able to level up cards that you use.

Also, it wasn't uncommon for newly released cards to be more powerful on ladder than their counterparts (executioner and night witch are big examples), encouraging people to level them up for money, before nerfing said cards when they became more common or other cards were being released.

> If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w.

False, I said that you can get to the top of the ladder without paying although most of the people with the skill are given max decks. If you have top of the ladder skills you will have no trouble grinding tourneys and challenges for tons of free cards and gold.

> Just because there are modes that are not p2w

You just said yourself it's not p2w. These other game modes absolutely do matter, that's where all the competitive focus of the game is.

> The drop rate of legenadaries is so low it took me ~5 months to get a bandit from a free chest... It would take me a few more YEARS to get one to max (level 5),

Legendaries aren't only available as random drops. I've seen the bandit probably a dozen times in the shop. Legendaries also aren't critical or across the board better than other cards, the top 20 cards by ladder win rate at stats royale are all non-legendary and includes 6 commons.

> Also, it wasn't uncommon for newly released cards to be more powerful on ladder than their counterparts (executioner and night witch are big examples), encouraging people to level them up for money, before nerfing said cards when they became more common or other cards were being released.

This seems like cognitive bias, there are also plenty of cards were underpowered on release and had to be buffed, sometimes multiple times, to be competitive (just from legendaries: lumberjack, log, inferno dragon, lava hound, etc.). Balance of new cards isn't perfect, news at 11.

> That's p2w. If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w. That's what p2w means

That's actually one of the more extreme ways of Pay 2 Win..

Getting a meaningful shortcut (ie. being able to become more powerful) with real-life currency is also Pay 2 Win. You're skipping the grind that way.

Lets say we got Alice and Bob.

Alice plays 2 hours a day and uses the completed quests in Hearthstone to buy packs.

Bob, who happens to be Alice's father, has a busy life. He does the household while Alice plays Hearthstone.

Friday evening they play a game. Bob just got his paycheck, and buys 50 Hearthstone cards. Bob constructs a nice deck with the new cards in which Bob has a statistical advantage of having likely more choice in cards to construct deck(s). Only thing Alice has going for it is more game experience.

Hence,

Hearthstone? Pay 2 Win. (Except arena)

Magic The Gathering? Pay 2 Win. (Except sealed deck tournament)

Soccer? Football? Hockey? Pay 2 Win. (Why? Cause if your club owns more money, they can buy better players.)

F1? They took some countermeasures to level their playing field IIRC.

Heck, the realization makes a lot of sports less fun to watch. Its also why I can't stand the whole Twitch/streaming circus.

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