"My husband is a programmer; I have no idea what that means."
renaebair.com
renaebair.com
This is underappreciated. I had a girlfriend who was an accountant. At the end of the day, she'd want to vent about work, and guess what? I couldn't follow her without asking some questions about accounting. Suddenly, I was interested in accounting, because I wanted to understand why she was annoyed or stressed or happy or relieved when she got home from work, and I didn't want to just nod and say "uh huh, uh huh" while she was talking about something that was an important part of her life. Now I don't give two shits about accounting.
If that's unusual, sign me up for an unusual woman.
The previous comments in this thread (and the article) suggest that once you do choose a person, for whatever reason, "settling" or not, you should put some effort in to better understanding and relating to them.
I was mostly speaking out of past relationship experiences... at one point I was seeing a student- a psychology major, even. She thought my skills and interests were, well, kindof dumb, and I felt the same way about hers (I was, uh, quite a lot younger than I am now.) I think the relationship lasted all of two months, and it is pretty amazing, considering how little we were willing to value the mental aspects of the other, that it lasted that long.
She did get the geekiness aspect though, in fact when I didn't want to join my college's sci-fi club she signed us both up (and became the president who all feared and respected). We had a blast there and made some life-long friends. Then she watched star trek: tng and the love of ST began :).
One of the reasons I married her is precisely because she is so different from me, and the fact that I must describe things to her as a layperson actually improves my communication skills greatly. I would never dream of being offended that she does not want to put forth the effort to grasp the gritty details of what I do.
That said, she does know what Ruby on Rails is :)
Do you not talk to your wife about what she does during the day?
[1] see http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1927#c...
I really hated myself the morning after, so I can't recommend it for the curious.
Happily engaged to a proud history/biology geek: I chat about the difference between static and dynamic typing, and get a brief history of the French revolution or an explanation of plant cell growth in return (it's a lot more fun to learn history over a few beers and accompanied by plenty of swearing and enthusiastic gesturing ;) )
Do you get that glazed, faraway look in your eye when you partner starts talking about a programming problem, or the newest testing framework? There’s no need to be bored. Ask questions, try to understand! When I meet women today, I don’t avoid talking about the work that I do, my love for pc gaming, or my fascination with D&D and other such geekery. Often I’ll get a response along these lines: “Programming? My husband does something like that I think.” To which I always inquire, “Oh really? What language does he work with?” Their response is always the same: “Language? huh. I have no idea. There’s more than one? I don’t really know what he does. I don’t pay attention to that stuff.” This always blows my mind. You’re married to someone, and you aren’t interested enough in the person to know anything about what they do with nearly 40-50% of their time, aside from their job title? ...
(click the link above to continue, I don't want to repost the entire text)
Back in my early 20's, when I was just out of university and doing any old contract job that came around, I happened to be working on a particularly complex project that involved a heavy amount of annoyingly complex javascript (before the days of jQuery). I ended up burning myself out trying to hit an impending deadline. I collapsed into bed in the middle of the day.
A little while later, my (then) girlfriend (now wife) came into the bedroom to ask if everything was ok and, waking up in a stupor and not really being conscious about what I was saying, I mumbled that it was all going wrong and I was hoping she would help me (she's not a programmer and wouldn't know where to start). I woke up a few hours later to find her stressing over one of my javascript reference books and looking at me with sad eyes, saying she didn't make much progress, because it was all a bit confusing.
My wife is an artist. Learning more about her passion is fun and has tangibly enriched my life.
EDIT: Her work is absolutely stunning and I am very proud of her.
Disclaimer: The site is a couple of years old and doesnt have her latest stuff. She has found it almost impossible to have her work photographed, even by professional photographers, so she hasn't me put up the new paintings. But go for it.
Before I met her, I had heard a hundred and one photography terms, but never knew or cared about exposures and apertures and such. Listening to her talk about it is a great experience, because I love to hear her explain to an idiot like me what a low f-stop is. I feel like I'm genuinely learning.
I also know that a photographer has never taken enough pictures. She can take 500 pictures on a trip to the grocery store and then go home and pick through and find the ones she likes.
I'm a very self-conscious person and hate the way I look in pictures, but in the past two years I've probably appeared in hundreds upon hundreds of photographs. I've learned not to look when she starts pointing the camera, because she wants to capture what's going on and not a designed picture. Whenever I have a camera in my hands I try to actively apply the things she's taught me about photography. All in all, I'd like to think I'm not photographer, but I take great interest in what she does.
I stiff can never remember what an f-stop is, but I pay attention. And she listens to me the the same way. It really matters, even when we don't know what the other is talking about.
My wife, on the other hand, is far more likely to place Django in the context of an early 20th century Gypsy Jazz guitar player than a 21st century web framework...
And yes, she does know what I do for work, she is my co-founder after all.
More importantly, I am now an adoring fan of doom metal, and have a greater appreciation for 18th century European literature and philosophy. I'm not sure I'll ever match her encyclopedic knowledge of obscure metal sub-genres (electro-Tolkien thrash metal?) but bands like Anathema and Ulver now dominate my last.fm account, and I have a finer appreciation for non-English-language films.
Conversely, she just finished Half-Life 2: Episode 2. I'm so proud of her! I also taught her to cook, which brings me more joy than I can put in words.
Does she have sisters?
"Joking" about how there are not any women who enjoy your hobbies just perpetuates the stereotype. And once learning about how awesome this woman is, what is the follow up comment? Wondering if she has any sisters, presumably so you can marry someone who looks like her.
Wouldn't a much better comment be "Wow, someone who codes SVMs, listens to Ulver, and reads 18th century literature? Sounds like my ideal girlfriend."
I have never in my life met a woman who knows what an SVM is, or who Ulver is. Why should I get jumped on for wishing that I had? Who said anything about looks? Also, generally speaking, saying that somebody else's girlfriend sounds like your ideal girlfriend is considered a little too forward.
The implication is that the admired facet in the first sister is that sought in the other sister(s). Familial traits and all.
>Wouldn't a much better comment be "Wow, someone who codes SVMs, listens to Ulver, and reads 18th century literature? Sounds like my ideal girlfriend."
That's pretty much what he said unless you're trying to misread his intention to start a flamewar IMO.
Often when someone says "I don't have an interest in [something antisocial], but" then they expressly have that interest.
In addition, I know that you don't want residents making major care decisions on their own.
I am intrigued to hear your reason about why so many doctors are unhappy? More than any other overly bureaucratic profession?
I'm fairly active in the volunteering community here in Seattle, and there are certainly many "meat market" volunteering groups here (read: ones where the implied purpose is dating, as opposed to just strictly doing good work). I've had them come through the places I normally work at, and the demographic usually breaks down to:
- doctors - other medical professionals - lawyers - engineers
Rarely do I see any other type. I suspect demanding professions make you a bit of a loner/shut-in/hermit, and thus unhappy.
I don't have a link handy - the last time one came through they invited me to join, but I never even visited their website. Generally though they present themselves as "networking for young professionals" groups, though seeing them in action it's more accurately "lonely single professionals seeking love".
Not that I'm knocking it - whatever floats their boat.
I've heard this from other volunteers, though I've never experienced it for myself, but religious charities are also major meat-markets. In Seattle we have the church sandwich brigades (they drive vans of sack lunches around to the local parks filled with homeless folk) - and having seen them around a few times it's definitely very meat-market-y.
Ahhh, if only I would pretend to be Christian :)
My girlfriend just graduated from nursing school, so I know a lot of recently-graduated nursing students. They do not agree with you. At all.
Doctors don't have to clean feces off of people who are too obese to move.
She said, "Yes, we do. Not only have I had to do just that, but I've had to put my finger in the rectum of an obese, eighty-year-old man, and literally pick out an impacted wedge of poop, after which, I had to insert a tube that I squirted water into and use a bucket to catch what came out. Later in the day, when I was checking on somebody, they vomited on me. And this was at the end of a thirty-hour shift, during which time I had slept like thirty minutes. Bite me. These were not isolated incidents."
The other thing she's said to me (a lot) is that nurses can easily make $50K a year right out of undergrad (or more), and she's actually right about this because I didn't believe her at first: http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp ; the median salary for beginning nurses is $52,700. If they don't like what they're doing, they can switch the kind of nursing they do (while being paid) or retrain as nurse anesthetists or nurse practitioners, who make over $100K a year.
In contrast, doctors have to go to med school for four years, incur a lot of debt, and do a hellacious residency for three to nine years. Nurses can get jobs with 500 hours of clinical practice; doctors need more like 20,000K hours: http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/media/kits/fp-np/educatio... .
In any event, there are shitty parts of nursing, but it offers good pay for reasonable amounts of work.
Anyways, my husband is a programmer and so am I so we don't have this problem, but another problem entirely...
She does a good job listening and trying to understand the computer things I'm working on and fascinated by.
Of course we share a lot of languages in common, but I have an almost complete lack of Python experience, as does he with Obj-c. Together we wrote a simple url-shortener in Python (http://get.emo.gd/), and with a little of my help, he has been dabbling in an iPad app that he's been wanting to write for ages.
For her part, she is also my first editor, and knows a lot about what I do, and has taught me so much about both language and art.
edit I'm struck by the coincidence of geeks and artists in this thread. I'd suspected there was a correlation before, but, damn...
I know quite a bit about the practice and have many intense debates with her about it. I take the scientific stance in these debates and we've often talked about the efficacy of homeopathic treatment, regulation, and so forth. I know quite a bit about it now and have been able to reach my own conclusions (which I won't discuss here).
I don't think she has as strong a knowledge in programming, but I think that's partly my fault as I don't talk about it much. She know what computer languages I know and that there are quite a few out there. She knows a few of the projects I've worked on. But that's about it.
The article provides some good advice. I took up knitting at one point just so I could spend more time with my wife doing things she likes. She's taken up cycling with me and has learned to appreciate graphic novels and some of my favorite poets. If you're going to spend a lifetime together you might as well make it as enjoyable as you can.
I love having that we have such 2 distinct passions in life. Sure, there's some overlap in engineering, but the subject matters are totally different. As a result of what she does, I get to travel to where her research takes her and meet people with backgrounds completely different from myself. It's freaking awesome.
The 2 of us are moving down to Pasadena next month because she's starting at Caltech. It's a bummer to leave the Bay Area, but I'm excited about our new adventures.
"Many democrats were concerned with the Obama admin's decision to..."
Bang. Asserted!
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(programming_language)
While it might be a liberal use of the word "cliché" I think it applies: I assumed I was fairly unique in recognizing LEGO as an influence on my career choice, but in fact it's common enough among programmers that this woman cites her lack of LEGO experience as an example of why she isn't a programmer.
The latter group is more likely to become some sort of engineer, but I would guess it's a personality trait that expresses itself through Lego in an early age.
Hrm. Not that I disagree, but it is abundantly clear that this husband and wife combo are very similar people. At least on her end.
If she is suggesting that she learned Ruby and started writing a blog because she wanted to know her husband better I'm calling BS. She did these things because she herself is interested in them.
If I am to be cynical: She shares her husband's interests, that much is clear, but is the experience mutual, and if not is she in any position to critique others?
He was a trooper.
This is what you say when you know someone is participating in an activity simply because they know you enjoy it, not so much because they are avid hikers (or rubyists) themselves.
None of that bothers me. In fact it seems to be - at least on her part - the key to enjoying life with another person.
What bothers me is that she openly mocks women that don't seem to have an passion for all the things their husbands do. It ignores that there (should be) a whole lot more to a person that a single passion. It ignores that many of those particular things may be what is shared. Most importantly it ignores the fact that she actually isn't doing what she claims to be doing at all.
There is no reason why any particular passion should be elevated to a level that it cannot be "excluded" from an important relationship, provided there are shared experiences in other areas.
To suggest otherwise says more about the person with the passion than the one forced to accept it, really.
1. The example of herself is invalid. Her interests in Ruby go beyond an interest in her husband's passion. They are her own passions. For some reason I don't think his interest in ballet is of the same quality. I'm sure there is something that she "tolerates" rather than "also enjoys", but she doesn't provide any data here.
2. I don't think it's required for my wife to know my programming passion to the levels of knowing that I prefer Python as a language any more than she should be required to know that the pilot-in-common sits on the left side of the aircraft in that profession.
The fact is that your programming passion in many cases is just one of your many interests. Provided that there are many areas that overlap with a significant other, in my mind it is silly to criticize those that don't share this particular one.
2. Disagreed. It's reasonable to understand your partners passions and career. I'd be disappointed in my wife not knowing I like Python and why - she'd probably tell someone 'because he can't be bothered telling the computer than 17 is a number'.
I, conversely, know a great deal more about ballet, fashion production, textiles and event management - if someone asked me 'classical or jazz', I'd know the answer, the difference, and why. It would be pretty lazy for me not to.
Passion isn't necessary, but why bother being in a close relationship with another person if you're not even going to learn what it is that they spend their time working on?
Issues with programmer ego aside, how is this any different from suggesting that your husband is a doctor without saying he is a pediatrician, a lawyer without saying he specializes in tax law, or a pilot without mentioning that he flies F-16C's?
but why bother being in a close relationship with another person if you're not even going to learn what it is that they spend their time working on?
For the same reason that you have no idea what this year's hot brand of shoes is: it's not a common interest.
Now, not having ANYTHING in common isn't exactly promising. However suggesting that this particular passion is more important than others - simply because you happen to share it - isn't exactly insightful.
I don't know anyone who spends that much time thinking about shoes.
1. People are their professions, fundamentally.
2. You would have an issue with me not knowing the shoe answer if my wife worked for a shoe designer.
I take issue with both statements.
I would say: If you were lucky enough to grow up with good enough opportunities (education particularly) that mean you don't have to take whatever job you can get, then you owe it to yourself to find a job that you can be passionate about - after all, you're probably going to spend at least 40 hours a week doing it!
Given the assumption that two people in a serious relationship are this lucky, and so have full time jobs that they are passionate about, then yes - I do think the relationship would be lacking something fundamental if one partner said "Uh, <job title>? I think my partner does something like that".
It is most certain that partners need to invest something in a relationship, and by default that includes experiencing the partner's passion.
Have you ever thought that the open admission of ignorance disguises the fact that the person is fully aware of the level of expertise that they do no have? In other words: programming is hard - too hard for most to fully appreciate. Being open to this is a basic admission of the fact, not a cast off.
To suggest that these people are off limits because of this is just silly. To suggest it by using an example of partner that is also a programmer even more so.
My wife has no real interest in programming, but is learning about it through conversations because she cares about me, and therefore cares about what I do. If I were to suddenly die or otherwise leave her life, she wouldn't continue any connection with programming.
I have no real interest in embroidery or painting, but I am learning about it as I talk with her about her loves and interests. If for some reason I were to lose her, embroidery and painting would cease to be part of my life.
I don't see the original author mocking anyone, I see her deploring the fact that so many people don't take a genuine interest in what their life partner does, and which is sometimes their passion.
I see the original author suggesting that a genuine effort to understand one's partner's interest will enrich both lives.
I've heard that Churchill once said: "If over dinner you find yourself seated next to a manufacturer of glass eyes, take the opportunity to learn about it - you will probably never get the chance again."
I've not been able to track down the definitive source, but I don't care - I believe the sentiment to be true, and by following that precept my life is much richer than it once was.
I don't restrict that to my wife's passions however. I also don't insist on the behaviour from her towards my passions.
It should not be hard to be engaged in your partner’s interests. If it is that hard, you might want consider the possibility that you might be full of yourself
This is what I have an issue with. She says this, yet she herself "is interested" in a passion she shares.
It's disingenuous, and the only other examples she gives are that of her husband.
Another: a good friend is a very talented amateur photographer. I know nothing about photography and it is not a personal interest of my own. But since my friend started learning, I ask him questions about the cameras he is buying, and the specs on each, the techniques he is practicing, etc. Because of this, my friend gets to share a really important part of his life with me, and I get to learn new things about photography and gain a certain appreciation for that art and the work that goes into it.
Take the husband/wife element out of my article. What it boils down to is opening our minds to things outside of our own spectrum. In turn, it makes the other person feel valued that you take the time to understand some basics about what they love.
I'm not suggesting that a programer's spouse should drop his/her career and become a programmer. But knowing enough to be able to hold some conversation with him/her and to be able to relate with them on some level shows that you're willing to step outside yourself, and think about what's important to the other person. I think we do this all the time in our relationships - we try to relate to our SO constantly. But programming seems to be one of those interests that are just avoided altogether in many cases.
As I said, I agree that it is a great thing to keep your mind open to other people's views, thoughts and feelings.
It takes a very curious mind however to find this practice at all interesting. A lot of people aren't really enamored by learning for it's sake alone.
But programming seems to be one of those interests that are just avoided altogether in many cases.
It most certainly is not. It just happens to be the one you see the most, especially since you and your husband - against the grain - share this passion.
Programming is no different than any other passion in this regard, from quilting to football to fashion to cigars.
Well rounded people will have a great many things they are passionate about. There will be those that their spouses share with them, and those that they do not. Provided that the amount shared works for both of them, what these particular passions are is irrelevant.
The problem with most programmers frankly is not that their SO's don't share their passion, it's that they have little beyond a passion for programming.
The less well rounded, the less likely you are to find a person to relate to.
I got married in 1997 the same year I started working on local number portability. Local number portability is the system that allows people to keep their phone number and change their carrier. Wire line local number portability happened first and then wireless number portability went live in November 2003. I had been working in this area for about six years.
About a week before the system went live. I'm on site and in a meeting. We were covering all the test results and launch plan details. I get a call from my wife. I figured it was important because she knew I was on-site. I take the call. she says, "Guess what I just heard. You are going to be able to change cell phone companies and keep your number! Isn't that cool?" "Um, Hun what do you think I've been working on for the last six years?"
Perhaps not, but "in their lives" need not mean "in every aspect of their lives". I think it's great for anyone, in a relationship with a programmer, or not, to learn about programming. But simple observation tells me that a relationship does not rely on the s.o.'s ability to talk learnedly about Perl v. Python v. Ruby.
Some of us do a lot more than I think you can reasonably expect a non-industry spouse to follow with any technical depth.
It's like expecting a prolific musician's wife to identify all the instruments her spouse plays and have some understanding of why he chooses one over another for a given piece, just because you could reasonably expect a blues guitarist's wife to know that her husband plays predominantly blues guitar.
It happens.
but seriously, we've had fights over that
Programming is my hammer. I know how to use it, but I prefer talking about what I do with the hammer. In turn, my wife knows about what you can do on my latest web project, and has no clue about coding.
Might be a slightly different context than the article, but I wanted to point out that there is a difference in the technical aspect of somebody's work and what "they do".
I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing but at the end of the day it does feel kind of bad to feel the need to push a pretty big part of your personality off into the corner because a majority of the women you'll meet don't care and will get annoyed if they have to hear about it. Nothing feels worse than telling a story and watching your audience dart their eyes, grow bored and try to think of ways to feign interest.
Don't give facts, tell a story.
At the end she asked why I need to do all that stuff if she can click on an excel option to sort the data!
You need to make something before you can make it fast. Hopefully something interesting and cool. Why not show her a 10 line app that loops through all her Facebook friends and gets their phone numbers?
My girlfriend is redoing her Java assignments and is going to do the OCW MIT course on Python very soon; I'm very very happy for her and she seems to really enjoy programming. Right now, I'm trying to get her to play a few of my computer games with me. :)
:wink:
News to me!