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Comment by TheCoelacanth | Hacker News Reader

Your whole argument is just trivially disprovable. Both trains and buses can be wheelchair accessible[1][2]. You don't need to lift the chair, you just roll it in, either up a slight incline in the case of buses or completely flat in the case of trains. No need for bystanders or station attendants to help.

[1] https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/visit/london-organisations...

[2] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1TZlXmiSe3I/UTcdowZY8hI/AAAAAAAAH3...

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Googling around a bit

Dutch train: https://www.seat61.com/images/Russia-austrian-ext.jpg

Swiss train: http://citytransport.info/Digi/3253.jpg

British train: https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Pas...

Eurostar: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/14/15/2C4DBFB70000057...

(I've used these Eurostar trains. If you have to get on with a wheelchair ... good luck. It's frankly too hard for perfectly normal people and pretty much all young kids have a lot of trouble)

Oh and as for London buses: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/driver-in-angry-co...

I will generally agree that London is a positive exception. Mostly because everything else in Europe is utterly inaccessible for wheelchair users. Unfortunately, even with that there isn't all that much that is accessible.

Let's just all sanely agree that obviously cars are a lot more wheelchair accessible than public transport, with a few small and limited exceptions. And even within those exceptions, public transport does not provide the services a car can give.

That's not obvious at all. For cars to be accessible, the car needs to be designed to be accessible. For public transportation to be accessible, it needs to be designed to be accessible. The situations are identical.

Here in the US, all public transportation is required by law to be wheelchair accessible. Perhaps Europe is different, but that is a decision that they have made, it is not an inherent limitation of public transportation.

Cars are not inherently wheelchair friendly; they must be designed to accommodate them. Trains and buses are exactly the same. Here at least, public transport is much more accessible than private vehicles because all public transportation must be wheelchair accessible, but there is no such requirement for private vehicles.

Accessibility measures:

Netherlands:

http://www.accessibletravelnl.com/blogs/Trains-in-the-Nether...

Switzerland:

https://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/passengers-with-reduc...

Britain:

http://www.britrail.com/plan-your-trip/passengers-needing-as...

Eurostar:

https://wheelchairtravel.org/review-eurostar-train-london-to...

I especially encourage you to look at the picture of the ramp in the last article. The Eurostar may be difficult to board for normal people, but if someone in a wheelchair calls in advance, they get all the assistance they need.

The article you linked for London buses is just people being inconsiderate and needing to be told to behave. That could have happened just as well with someone blocking a parking lot reserved for disabled people.

Just read through the Dutch accessibility article and ... I find it incredibly hard to believe that a system like that actually works during periods of real traffic. During commute-heavy hours, there is no way in hell the NS could do this for even 0.1% wheelchair travelers on a train line. You also just don't see wheelchair users on Dutch trains. Never. I mean, it's not like I was paying attention to it and yes, there is sometimes section with a wheelchair accessible toilet, but there's never any wheelchairs there. I mean I take perhaps 2 or 3 Dutch trains per year, but still.

So to put it bluntly: I see your articles ... they paint a completely unrealistic picture, and frankly I refuse to believe that things practically work this way.

A lot of details are unspecified. They essentially say "call 3 hours in advance and we'll provide". I called "sorry we don't work at this time, call back during working hours ... blah blah blah", but of course there are (a lot of) trains riding around at the moment. So ... not during weekends ? I hope it's not that bad. Somehow this isn't mentioned on that page. It also seems to be limited to large stations and is not generally available on either all trains or all stations.

I also refuse to believe that this can work for 10-15 wheelchair users on one train. Picturing such a situation raises all sorts of practical issues (for one, I seriously doubt that you can fit more than 5-6 wheelchairs in the biggest NS wheelchair section in a train that I've ever seen) that I'm thinking they just don't deal with.

Just no.

Additionally I'm ignoring the fact that for wheelchair users and other accessibility-challenged users the other problems of the train (such as a potentially large walking distance between the station and your house and/or your actual destination) that cars don't have as much are much worse than for normal people.

I will agree that the trains in Holland are much more usable than the trains in the Bay Area. That's certainly true. But practical for wheelchair users ? No way. Anywhere even remotely as good as having a car ? No way. (but yes, if you're rich (cars are cheaper), and live in inner city of the Hague, they're certainly more practical)

Eurostars are awfully simple to board on a wheelchair. If a platform hasn't been already provided (as it should be if you booked online) you merely need to ask for assistance at the check in desk, they'll call for a ramp. If push comes to shove, somebody will lift you up. Total time of the operation = 50 seconds.

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