Why isn't it higher?
Why isn't it higher?
Edit: Looks like you edited your answer to include flamewar info. That makes a ton of sense.
To save others from having to look it up themselves: according to [0], it took 13 hours for Sam's article to fall off the front page, while this article fell off after about 1 hour.
dang didn't say it was ONLY heat-to-substance ratio causing the downmod. Clearly, there are other factors than heat-to-substance ratio causing it though. It's hard to dismiss the suspicion that either "embarrasses YC president" could be a factor in downmodding this article or that Sam's article was not downmodded in order to avoid embarassing Sam :(
HN is tremendously influential in tech culture, so even a tiny difference in moderation of similar articles reflecting opposing points of view could compound to a very destructive effect.
You say "clearly" and then switch to "hard to dismiss the suspicion". There's no "clearly" there, just suspicion. I'm sure it's a natural suspicion or you wouldn't be posting it, but it lands with me as strange somehow. How could an article that doesn't mention Sam embarrass Sam? It was written weeks before his essay anyhow.
What you're missing, perhaps, is that the reaction here, by both the users who flagged and the moderators, probably isn't about the subject matter per se, but about the fact that this topic was thoroughly covered yesterday and in follow-up threads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15936614. Doing the same thing every day is boring, and the current article doesn't clear the bar of substantiveness enough to justify overriding that.
There's another point that sits a bit uncomfortably with me. You say HN is influential in tech culture, but if that's true, it's because of qualities HN has that are the product of the very system (community plus moderators plus software) that you seem to object to. That comes up all the time and to me it seems incongruent.
You overrate the power of moderation to control this community. Even if we wanted to control it, which we don't, we couldn't, not even close. We serve it and we never forget that.
All I meant by “clearly” was that the signal-to-heat was the same between the two articles.
Sometimes user flags are overridden by mods, so it seemed like maybe that’s what happened on Sam’s article but not on this one?
I am worried by your argument that we just discussed his yesterday so let’s not today, it’s just as much about the articles as the discussion, this article has substance and is a neat counterpoint to Sam's article, don’t you think? Perhaps in these cases lock comments but leave the article on the front page?
Regarding the influence of HN, please don’t ignore that Sam is YC’s president and YC operates HN, so maybe the issue is just that HN isn’t sufficiently independent from YC? Under the status quo the optics look really bad.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply and your hard work! It reassures me that you take the judgment calls you make seriously. Communities like HN are challenging to moderate indeed.
Re yesterday: if we didn't moderate HN like this the front page would consist mostly of repetitive stuff. There's no doubt in my mind that the community wouldn't like that, and certainly it would make HN a different place. Intellectual curiosity shrivels under repetition.
Edit: ok, it's a bit complicated because the influences of these factors are constantly varying, so giving you an accurate answer means sounding like I'm contradicting myself. But at present, the story's rank is only being affected by upvotes and user flags, not by the anti-flamewar software and not by moderation.
The tug-of-war between upvotes and flags on HN is the fundamental dynamic of how the community expresses what it wants. There's a balance between the two and it has worked this way for a long time. Sometimes upvotes get the upper hand, sometimes flags do. But it works the same way in every case, more or less. You're right that part of the community is interested in discussing the article, but then another part of the community feels otherwise. Both matter, and the community is rarely in agreement.
If you're in the camp that wants a particular article on the front page then obviously you will be tempted to conclude that the other camp is trying to suppress the topic, possibly with help from secretly-opposing-you mods. Usually this is not accurate—it just feels that way. In reality there are many more things that go on. One is that when a similar article has just recently been thoroughly discussed, the community's distaste for repetition kicks in. It isn't that people oppose the topic, it's that repetition is boring. In cases like that, we turn off the flags only if the article is unusually substantive or contains significant new information. I don't see that here.
Another factor is that if there weren't countervailing mechanisms like anti-flamewar software and moderation, attention would flow, every day, to the same few controversies that happen to be hot that day. Empirically, that's just what upvotes do. No one wants an HN that looks like that, and we need both software and moderation to actively prevent it. To have HN be HN—that is, a site about intellectual curiosity—the system can't be purely upvote-driven. From our point of view as moderators that's all we're doing: providing a systemic service. But from the point of view of people whose wishes about a particular article are thwarted, it feels like moderators are intellectually, politically, and even personally aligned against them. People notice the cases they dislike much more than all the times the roulette wheel comes out in their favor, so it's both easy and common to feel consistently aggrieved, yet still come back to the site every day. That's kind of weird if you think about it.
The way I read the response is the following: the tug of war between users who want to see / comment on this and those who are flagging the article is being won by those flagging it - and thus the article has fallen below the front page.
The irony is strong here. An article talking about what you can't say, being flagged to oblivion, further confirming that, indeed, some things can't be said.
Strange world these days..
This is unfortunate. The discussion has been heated, yes, but I would argue there is plenty of substance to be found. Ironically, @sama was decrying precisely the ever-shrinking social space for controversy.