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Comment by diggan | Hacker News Reader

From the article:

"Prosecutors said that Ms Shahnaz obtained a Pakistani passport in July and booked a flight to Pakistan with a layover in Istanbul, intending to travel to Syria.

She was arrested at John F Kennedy airport carrying $9,500 in cash, just under the limit of $10,000 that a person can legally take out of the country without declaring the funds.

Searches of her electronic devices showed numerous searches for Islamic State-related material. "

Also the following:

"Prosecutors say she took out fraudulent loans of $85,000 (£63,000) in order to buy the bitcoin online."

How you take out a fraudulent loan? How can they know her intent from just a couple of searches? Lots of information missing from this article, and makes me think that this woman commited thoughtcrime rather than an actual crime...

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This is a summary. You might want to read the actual press release with the actual indictment rather than make up accusations of "thoughtcrime". https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indic...

Also, it's an indictment. The actual evidence will be presented at the trial.

That may be true. However, have you been blind to the constant discussion that the police are more than willing to confiscate money and leave you be?

And it is an indictment, that can be rescinded. The funds themselves can be charged.

She lied to obtain loans and sent money to ISIS. Seems like real crimes to me. The fact that police and prosecutorial abuses exist doesn't mean that they're happening here.

That's what the police allege.

She claims that it was direct humanitarian aid to the peoples in Syria.

That is why we have due process to get at the truth (or at least the most plausible explanation).

Sure. It sounds like the police have enough evidence to move forward with a trial, and then the court will decide innocence or guilt. That's how it's supposed to work. There's nothing in any of this, as far as I can see, to support your suggestions of police misconduct, or the other fellow's suggestions of thoughtcrime.

Joining the Knights of Rojava, or Peshmerga, or the Women's Protection Unit YPG looks just like this.

They all involve a layover in Istanbul

They all involve wiring money, sometimes to you for the free tickets

They all involve making multiple internet searches of factions in Syria

and none of them involve getting arrested, simply because they aren't ISIS

Not buying it. The indictment doesn't give details, and the summary the DOJ has lacks specifics on how it determined the bitcoin was going to ISIS, or that she wasn't just speculating on bitcoin. The point is that these are prerequisites for the governments case.

The only difference when joining the other factions is that the US won't scoop you up at JFK or in Istanbul if they think you are joining the other factions, and aren't muslim.

I don't understand how you can simultaneously say that we don't have details and that joining these other organizations looks just like this.

We don't know what the evidence is against this person. While it's true that the evidence could be crap, it could also be solid. This looks like a standard indictment for activities that are and should be illegal. I see no reason to think any "thoughtcrime" was involved.

I'm not using the word thoughtcrime, someone else had though.

> I don't understand how you can simultaneously say that we don't have details and that joining these other organizations looks just like this.

What is confusing about that? The government doesn't arrest people for trying to join the other ones. OOooh you think those would count as terrorist organizations too! Nope. Thats the point, it is completely subjective BS. You can join other non-state enemy combatant groups and the US will not care at all. I'm surprised I don't hear more about YPG here on HN more often, you might like what they stand for.

> We don't know what the evidence is against this person. While it's true that the evidence could be crap, it could also be solid.

We agree on this, I simply spelled it out and point out that I can't reserve judgement on the government's side until the evidence is shown, and this doesn't show enough of it to even sound damning to me, the opposite conclusion than what you came to, perhaps its because I am aware of the following:

Syria has been a "choose your faction" videogame for 5 years now, with only ISIS being the hidden character you aren't supposed to access. The allegation, to be convincing before trial, needs to at least show how she was affiliated with ISIS aside from some mere google searches.

Otherwise, AS WE BOTH AGREE, the evidence will just have to wait till then.

She may have falsified documents or misrepresented her intentions when getting the loans. That would make them fraudulent.

If you had a US citizen as a coconspirator it's not a bad way to get a ton of money really-have them blow up their good name to take a series of crappy loans, use them to buy Bitcoin, flee to Pakistan. Sure you'd be burning your bridges in the US but if you were planning on living in a terrorist camp somewhere, you're not really concerned with that I imagine.

> How you take out a fraudulent loan?

Presumably you commit fraud on your loan application.

I am pretty sure that taking a loan with the intention to leave the country and skipping out of repaying is fraudulent.

Naturally its up to the prosecutor to prove the intent.

How were they able to search electronic devices? It's that easy / routine now at airports?

I’ll never bring my phone on an international flight again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13645825

I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Protection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13453189

A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629593

US Customs block Canadian man after reading his Scruff profile: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13702981

The last one didn't even happen on US soil but at Vancouver airport; there are now more than 600 US customs agents stationed in multiple airports around the world:

    Dublin and Shannon in Ireland; Aruba; Freeport and Nassau in The Bahamas; Bermuda;
    Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates; and Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal,
    Ottawa, Vancouver, and Winnipeg in Canada.

Customs can detain you until you unlock the device.

You take out a fraudulent loan by making misrepresentations of some variety on the loan documents.

You don’t just show up to the bank asking for a loan “because I want it”, you have to state what you want it for and how you intend to repay it. The bank will then assess if your request makes sense, and whether you can afford it, before granting it.

I guess a bank wouldn’t loan money “to help refugees” or “to buy bitcoins”, so anything she’s stated was likely false, hence fraud.

Balance transfer loans are "because I want it" and I get offers for those all the time, up to the limit of my credit for an individual account (I have many) which exceeds $30,000.

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