Facebook wants your children's mind
thenextweb.com
thenextweb.com
Just drop FB, it’s not that important, and 70% of people are clearly (by reading all the “I quit Facebook drama posts”) over attached to it.
I have no social media accounts at all and never have. I thought the very idea of facebook was creepy when it launched and I've not changed my mind since.
Who will I be flagged by?
9 of 10 people my age have it [1].
Facebook provides a public log of years of your posts. A quick way to get to know someone. To figure out if you should trust them. It's far from perfect but neither are social security numbers.
Services like Airbnb's use your account to verify you aren't a spammer. I have heard of landlords and employers asking for it as well. If you don't have it you are undefined.
[1] - http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/11/11/social-media-update-20...
I recently went on a date where the girl told me she nearly had a panic attack when she couldn't find me on Facebook or anywhere else while waiting at the venue. Given we had met briefly at a bar only a week before the check was warranted (IMO), and given the positioning of Facebook in her life and many others, it was the tool she relied on and was disarrayed by.
Sure my case is anecdotal but I do not believe it is unique. Facebook has forced itself to be a single point of failure in parts of our culture, they did it intentionally to make money, and we should acknowledge it.
Thank you. I think the downvotes are because I didn't elaborate. Making it hard to understand what I was saying if you haven't experienced it.
I really like this attitude (not being sarcastic). People seem to think Facebook is a great way to keep in touch. I think it's a great way to waste your time, and slowly devalue your relationships.
for example, when i used fb for a time it bothered me that there was stigma against "unfriending". I would frequently make new accounts and remember feeling guilt for doing so.
Eventually ditched it permanently about 5 years ago. Friends from my mid 20s seemed to keep it around as entertainment (waiting for others to embarrass themselves in everyday updates, trolling groups, stalking for conversation topics) and self comparison. they claimed, "we only use it ironically lol" and no longer planned events through it, shared photos or life stories, etc.
It was gross and I feared I'd become a target when I had the account. I used to check my feed just to make sure I was still "cool" with everyone. I was bullied as a child and went through emotional trauma so sadly I was a great target for an all-day everyday user.
Eventually I couldn't handle the pressure, and disagreed with fb's 'vision' (ads) and privacy policies so I refused to use it. first year after doing so i was upset that "nobody kept in touch outside of the fb platform". much later, i am grateful they didnt, as I'm in a wildly different place in my life. I would not be where I am now had I not moved on from those toxic, enabling relationships. Obviously this is not the case for everyone, but I wanted to share my perspective.
Mindblowing to me that parents allow use of the platform to children. when I was legally an adult I didn't possess the mental capacity to take a step back and question what I got out of the site, placing "importance of friendship and loyalty" above my own feelings. I cannot begin to fathom how the platform would have twisted my thinking, and relationships, and sense of self as a child or even teen. given the suspicion (or reality) that other relationships get devalued over time, won't the "relationship" with one's own ego/self image will get devalued as well with continued use?
I hope there is some way to educate children and teens about the mental/social/behavioral implications of using social media -- or even different levels of involvement. but I don't know if that should be in school syllabus or the responsibility of the parents. perhaps both?
My post got longer than intended, sorry! I am very passionate about the subject
Consider for example friends and family you talk to over the phone, go out drinking with, have parties with, have lunch with, etc., as compared to those whose cat pictures you just looked at on your phone.
That's how I look at it at least.
I basically haven't used the feed part of Facebook in years, and I am happy to stay away.
That's what I'm doing. Hopefully someday I can kill Messenger too.
Of course, I'm not at all sure the benefits I've gotten have any resemblance to most peoples' experience on Facebook, and plenty of reason to believe that this isn't the case. And there's no way in hellllll I'd give my daughter a Messenger for Kids app.
At the end of the day, I'm more concerned with how my point of view appears to lurkers than to someone I'm debating. I'm unlikely to change that person's mind in any given convo.
Yes: RSS and/or email lists. I have a blog and email client, but I also know some people who wouldn't use those things. It sucks, but that's the way things are now.
We get to see them about twice a year because of cost and distance of travel.
Indeed, the main reason to have an account there now is to avoid the "you don't have a facebook account" judgement.
The thought people would put themselves out there like that strikes me as being incredibly privaledged or incredibly naive...
Also, having a "debate" over FB sounds only moderately more pleasant than having a debate in the comments of a Youtube video.
As far as the risk of people hating me, I try really hard to always be respectful of people I debate with. I think for that reason, I've been able to keep friendships with people I regularly have some pretty intense disagreements with.
Indeed, growing up, that was pretty much what the internet provided me: both a way to be exposed to new ideas, to challenge others, etc, and a way out of the stiffling intellectual backwater that was highschool/suburbia.
But, "back in my day", we did it privately. Anonymously. We had handles/aliases. In person friends had conversations in person. On the internet, you operated behind your handle/alias. And you better believe that your real name and identity was almost never voluntarily connected to your handle/alias.
I had people that I'd known for years, whose real names I still don't know, and I'm never going to.
The "idea" of being simultaneously identified by your real name, using a public corporate for-profit communication system that has a memory and saves your communications, and having contentious conversations are ideas that are so absolutely alien to me I sometimes still have to kick myself that some people are doing it.
It's like old people who click on ads, or open attachments in emails: why would you even do that!
Using aliases is rarely really anonymous, you can probably infer my identity pretty easily.
One can be above if one chooses, it's seems ultra-paranoid to want to discuss nothing unless you're anonymous - what do you talk about then in social situations IRL, do you wear a mask when you go out?
Depending on what your beliefs are, maybe nothing.. for now. However, if government or corporate interests decide that your beliefs are an issue for them at any point in the future, having them permanently stored could become an issue for you in the future.
But in doing so, one is talking about topics that one feels relatively safe about: either because one is expressing opinions that are in some ways culturally mandated, or which are so trivial one doesn't view them as controversial, or because one holds a social position whereby even though those views are contentious one feels they have enough social power to get away with expressing them.
But we don't have a perfect idea of what is deemed contentious in the future or what future contexts will be, so if you're not in a position of relative social power, and are assuming you're going to stay in that position for the plausible future, you're taking massive risks...or alternately your not really discussing very controversial opinions.
I'm lucky, in that I don't have anything that society currently views as a strong negative and I'm now in a relatively powerful position, but even I have to wear a "social mask" when I go out because my brain doesn't seem to work like most people's, and common topics of conversation dont really interest me.
But imagine others, or even me hypothetically investigating opinions I don't necessarily agree with. Indeed, back at university, for example, I attended various religious groups and meetings: I was interested from an anthropology perspective, but if someone had taken my name out and associated me with that group, that might kiss goodbye future employment.
And what about other groups and genuinely controversial opinions: gay men in religious communities, women in Saudi Arabia, minorities and ethnic groups, drug users, pirates, criminals, anarchy/communist/separatists/far right groups, fetishists and swingers, racists and religious fundamentalists (again, I did some work on the latter back at university). Even being interested in such topics in any serious fashion is enough to raise a bit of "social suspicion" from a social capital perspective...
Also, real identity carries weight in a discussion because you're socially accountable for your views and conduct. Now, again, I'm privileged to hold views that are socially, politically, and professionally acceptable in the spaces I inhabit,even if they're not often fully shared. But I also don't think that's coincidental.
I think it's all about how the platform is used. Yes, it's designed to be addictive, but the less friends you have added, the less notifications you will receive daily. If one doesn't post many personal details, or does not document their life on their timeline, one can avoid most of the data-grabbing. I have two photos of me showing my face. I close the Facebook tab when not in use, and check it once a day. If no one has messaged me I close the tab again. I don't check Facebook on my phone.
As a sidenote, having HN as a source for "distraction" has helped me significantly. I check this site in the morning and learn something new everyday. But it doesn't feel like "work", it feels like a "break", similar to the feeling Facebook once gave me but without the guilt.
The problem is that many of these things just aren't posted anywhere else.
There is a real impact on my life if I stop using it. I stop learning about the 3-4 events I attend every week, including pop-up restaurants, nonprofit gatherings, and concerts. I stop knowing about major life events for the 100+ people I care about, but can't text every week saying, "What's new?"
It may not have much value to you, but you're one person arguing against 1B+ other people. There's a high chance you just don't use it like most people or don't care about the same things.
I think we are addicted to control, novelty, and distraction, and we are neglecting real social connections.
Think about it. It started with call waiting. Now another party could preempt your conversation. Then there was the answering machine, you can time shift and screen your calls. Next it was pagers. Page me, and I will return the call at my leisure. Then cell phones. Anyone can call anytime! But that is too intrusive so everyone starts texting. Texting is not conducive to real human interaction. We need to hear each other, we need to be near and see facial expressions. We are losing part of our humanity.
I hesitate to call my own mother now without texting first. I hate that.
Im five years clean from FB and have never looked back.
It is absolutely possible to maintain communication with friends and family without Mr Zuckerberg's spy system.
I encourage those of you who think it's a necessity to please try to spend even a few months off of it. We'll never escape our dystopia when even those who understand the dangers refuse to put down the social network drug.
FB distorts how you perceive the world, including how you perceive a possible life without it.
I'll place extra emphasis on this, for those that are hesitant. Just give it a try for a few months, and if you want to go back that is always an option. Right in time for New Year's Resolutions: go "Facebook free" for a whole 30 days. If it's not for you, that's fine, re-install / re-activate and there wasn't much to lose. But you can't know the alternatives without trying!
I quit Facebook years back because I somehow just realized that it provided no value to me. Keeping in contact with my real friends was something that could either be done in person, by text message, email, etc. Then add on top of that a lot of content is just noise, rather than wholesome original thought. Original posts are down... more people are just re-sharing crap from large groups. IMO Facebook is just a glorified, yet heavily stripped down, email client that allows people you didn't directly message to be dragged in too.
I think people by-and-large see Facebook as something larger and more praise-worthy than it actually is. There is a lot of mainstream hype around the platform that is strange from someone like me on the outside (because I quit). Maybe it is mystical because it's a story of a college student becoming a billionaire so quickly, and it gives people the impression that if someone so young got so much money in such a short amount of time, then the platform must be that good.
Bad!
I need drugs to be happy
Bad!
I need Facebook to stay connected! (and thus be happy and have fun)
No problem!
Oh, please. My circle of friends uses it extensively to plan gatherings and such because it's fairly easy and most everyone has it. Most of us don't post very much or spend all that much time on the platform. I'm glad that you and all of the others who have managed to see beyond the seventh veil by deleting Facebook are doing well by it, and I also have my dislikes and reservations about the platform, but most of those are easily assuaged by simply not posting and browsing the news feed.
In fact, I enjoy running into those people or meeting up with them periodically even more because then they can tell me everything they've been going through in person. To me that's more fun than getting a stream of micro updates on everyone.
I feel we entered The Button Age. Want a pizza? Hit this button. Want to get groceries delivered? Want to watch a movie? Hit a button. Want to show you care about some cause or event? Hit a button. Want to reward your brain with dopamine and feed your narcissistic behaviors by pretending that viewing a curated timeline of people's "lives" is friendship? Happy Birthday, press the button.
We are perpetuating a simulacron of human relationship.
This is First World narcissism. We can't figure out how to feed everyone, but one day, when we finally make it, we can all blob around and livestream our lives while the robots take care of the drudgery. Hell, maybe someone on HN right now is working on Twitch for human behavior right now. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades.
For example - Whatever happened in Vegas? So many unanswered questions about the worst shooting in American history, and it disappears from the news and public consciousness after what, 9 days? It's sad.
Mark is truly an asshole
I use it for purely 'commercial' purpose and not remotely close of gaining information about what's going on on the world.
One other reason for me just 'having' it oppose to using it, it I just moved into a new city. It's, I think, a good way to have them added on the platform to get to know them.
I agree with you letting old buddies let go. I see, only communication worth keeping is via instant messaging, such as Telegram & Whatsapp. A good way to talk and let me know what's on with their life instead of having a constant feed. It remove the surprise factor along with things to talk about during instant messaging.
It’s worse than any notification I have ever gotten.
Additionally the only calls I get these days are spam anyways :(
It baffles me that we ever thought it’s acceptable for any person to just call you whenever they pleased...it’s such a intrusive and awkward medium.
I would never go back to that and 100% happy with Facebook, email, etc
Buwahahahaha. Yea, like that stops the car warranty and health insurance spammers that fake the caller ID of a local number from ringing you 3 or 4 times a day.
With POTS we have to keep contacts separate, with a meeting service contract retention and interaction history - which improve customer service - are built in.
As someone who grew up in one of those countries, I found Facebook incredibly useful to find alumni of my high school in US universities and ask them questions on how they got here (LinkedIn was not a thing then). There weren't, and still aren't, any alumni network or guidance counselor. I didn't even know where to begin (say to Google things).
This is, of course, just one use case but the point is that Facebook does provide value to some people. Back home, for many people of generation before the internet, it is the only way they stay in touch with their several kins on other countries. We can debate about what 'value' / 'meaning' it adds to their lives. But that is a separate conversation.
And yes, there are concerns about privacy. But that is the tradeoff you make in life.
People used to have social connections before Facebook came around and the methods to form and maintain those connections aren't dead yet since there is a large portion of population who never started using Facebook (my parents, for instance.
There's plenty other positives about facebook. It allows more convient and efficent ways of communication, networking, and sharing that honestly didn't exist before.
To me the fundamental problem of Facebook is not computer-facilitated social networking, but rather that it is run on proprietary centralized servers by a for-profit corporation.
Seriously, though, this happens to many people on facebook. A devaluation of interpersonal relationships.
I use/abuse Twitter and Instagram though. I'm not nearly as glued to them as a Facebook feed though and they've actually provided real value/connections to me.
Facebook (and other social media sites) is like the digital version of a fast-food restaurant. And luckily for them they have 2 billion users eating it, so there is a lot of peer pressure on others who'd rather not eat to go there anyway because their friends are there.
Facebook makes fantastic communications tool and gives them away for a whopping $0. I love staying aware of what's going on with my grandparents, old classmates, friends, and family, AND not having to directly pay money for this.
I would love to hear other perspectives.
EDIT: Downvote away, but my point is that people pick on Facebook for privacy concerns but we all know it's an advertising company (probably the best the world has ever seen). It also operates the best communications tools the world has ever seen and it doesn't get enough credit for that. In 2006, the News Feed was publicly bemoaned because of privacy issues and it's now the core product. Facebook has built great tools over time, even when people didn't initially agree. Not trying to incite anger, just pushing toward a debate.
You are hearing other perspectives. You've just chosen to write them off as "the evil media being angry that Facebook is replacing them and lashing out".
As a bullied kid I already saw what facebook was from the start so I never created an account and cringe every time I see it mentioned on the news.
In exchange for your personal data (at levels not known by most people)
> love staying aware of what's going on with my grandparents, old classmates, friends, and family, AND not having to directly pay money for this.
As one becomes more dependant on it for communicating, they can do worse and worse things and it'll be harder and harder to say no.
Yeah, that explains why younger generations care less about data privacy. Already the convenience is hard to beat.
In exchange for your personal data (at levels not known by most people)
In the longer term you are not giving up your privacy but your freedom (assuming Facebook becomes dominant middleman for the information) with who you communicate and about what topic.
More accurately, it's a surveillance company (with some behavioral testing and manipulation as well), and ads are just the best way to monetize information for now. As ad blockers and banner blindness become more common, they'll find another, probably worse, way to monetize that information, like pre-interview employee screening or pseudo-credit-scores.
Also, unlike Google, which at least built an innovative search engine back in the day (remember Lycos, Alta Vista, and "portals?"), I can't think of anything particularly novel or valuable created by Facebook.
we declared Facebook to be a monopoly and broke it up like we did Ma Bell in the 70s?
I dunno. Feels like it's too big, too ubiquitous, and is too much oriented towards encouraging behaviors that are much better for their pockets than for anyone using it.
Hell, look at this story: Facebook already has (according to a quick google search, [citation needed]) about 58% of the US' entire adult population, or 3/4 of all adult Americans who use the Internet. (which is about 81%). Their user growth rate is going flat, because they're running out of people willing and able to be online. But they need to keep acquiring new users no matter what, so now they're turning their eyes to the people who they are legally barred from giving accounts to.
Gotta find more eyeballs to show ads to.
Facebook is not near as bad as Google is in terms of quiet influence, at least among the younger generation.
No. Right now, social networking right is sort of like email in the AOL/Compuserv days. Email is a kind of social network, but they key difference between it and service like Facebook is that it's implemented using open standards. There's no reason open standards for a "Facebook feed" could be designed and mandated during a break-up.
Along which lines could it be broken up? Datacenters? Subsets of the social graph? Would you liked to be grouped with your family, your school or your church?
It seems very plausible that one of them would grow and engulf everyone, while the others woulg go the way of MySpace. What then?
> It seems very plausible that one of them would grow and engulf everyone, while the others woul[d] go the way of MySpace. What then?
I've thought about this, and I think the best way to break up Facebook is by datacenter, staff, AND social graph. However, each successor company needs to be required to inter-operate with the others and everyone else through some open standard. That would blunt the network effect and perhaps allow a decentralized, competitive market to stabilize.
I may be biased by having pretty much ditched Twitter for a Mastodon instance that I run for myself, a few friends, and whoever else thinks it would be cool to be @username@dragon.style and have a Twitter-like thing that lets them emit 7k tweets if they want to.
* Community management, AI, and algorithms in general will eventually be powerful enough to do completely eradicate anything considering double plus ungood by Facebook.
* Life on Facebook is a slice of human social life, although admittedly poorly curated.
* Sensor and mobile technology will before long be good enough to have a full annotated and indexed high definition 3D recording of every person's existence at all moments.
With these taken together, it's not hard to imagine a Facebook that becomes the perfect law enforcer and social control mechanism far beyond anything thought up by Orwell or Demolition Man, definitely leaning more toward the Matrix.
It follows that any product that's successful at controlling people can sell that control.
If you consider the implications of Facebook-as-mass-mind-control, then Russian election-meddling, viral suicides, and all of Facebook's other facets make a lot of sense.
It also makes sense that Facebook wants to get better at controlling you by learning more about what motivates you, leveraging social pressure, and taking over more of your attention.
(That said, I still enjoy and use Facebook. I'm just worried about how powerful it is.)
That is one reason for advertising, but not the only one. Advertising is also meant to simply notify people of the existence of a certain product. In that sense, it isn't supposed to force people to buy something they don't need, but it is supposed to make them choose advertised brand, once they need such product.
That fits the definition of "mind control", as I was using it. Your definition might differ from mine.
I've given up expecting corporations to be nice, I haven't quite given up on expecting them to obey the law, the bits they haven't written themselves anyway.
Governments have a huge work to do in order to analyze what could be harmful and what is ok, and pass law about it.
This is just another thing you'll need to teach your children about as you do your best to ready them for the world and help them become independent thinkers.
Of all the productive and happy people I have known, none use facebook.
Of all the miserable and lost people I know, most of them do.
> My philosophy is that for education you need to start at a really, really young age.
According to Wikipedia, Zuck has two children. Let's see their public profiles!
If I have to build a social networking site, say - FriendBook, what features would you like in it?
So is the case with WhatsApp.
Privacy, if not now, will be unsustainable part of business model later. Look at Apple Ping[0].