Nathan Myhrvold unveils massive cookbook for science geeks | Hacker News Reader

Nathan Myhrvold unveils massive cookbook for science geeks

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63 pointscwan39 comments

If someone is thinking "what could I get 'tptacek for Christmas for all his helpful comments", know that I can't justify dropping $500 for a book, but I soooooo want to. ;)

McGee and Ferran Adria both say this set of books is going to change cooking. McGee wrote basically the bible of culinary science (On Food And Cooking, which you should buy even if you don't cook much, it's just a great, great book to open to any page and thumb through); Ferran Adria is one of cooking's greatest innovators.

We could do some fund raising for you. :o)

Fundraise for a new website for Colin Percival's Tarsnap first, please. ;)

I'll even chip in!

On Food And Cooking is AMAZING. McGee used to live in Palo Alto too.

I just bought the Thomas Keller Sous Vide book. I'll probably buy the myrhvold book too.

You know what I've found terribly useful lately? The Flavor Bible.

On the other hand, somebody got me the recent Herve This book on molecular gastronomy and didn't really get much out of it.

The Flavor Bible is also fun to flip to an arbitrary page in and read in either direction, but it really wants to be a web app, doesn't it? (There's obviously a bunch of web apps that try, but they don't have the curation that the book has).

I don't know if you've been following Myrhvold's cooking stuff, but my understand is that there's a fair bit of mythbusting going on too; he gave a talk recently where he claimed to debunk the notion that you have to poach duck in fat to confit it, for instance (lies! all lies!). My cofounder Dave is a cooking school grad and he's sure that this book is going to be hugely important, even if you already have McGee.

But, $500 for a book!

6 books, 2400 pages. That's less than a nickel a page, or ~$80 per volume. There, now you're justified, I just gave you an 85% discount per book :)

Oh, totally. Do you know about foodsubs.com?

should we just set up a HN instance for cooking, or what?

I just bought the polyscience smoke injector thing. This weekend's going to be tasty.

I have an actual smoker in my garage, but my partner Dave just built his own smoke gun out of $15 bucks worth of parts. Write something up about your smoke injector thingy so we can all talk about smoked food next!

I interviewed Nathan for my book (Cooking for Geeks, O'Reilly 2010) and will be posting the interview online in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, to those that complain about the price, I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being sold at printing cost. Nathan did not write this book to make money; he wrote it to advance the field of culinary arts in ways that only someone with his resources can.

-Jeff

> I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being > sold at printing cost

You sound more experienced in these matters than me, but this seems very unlikely. I presume the book will be excellent, but Myrvhold has never been shy about making money. Do you have more evidence back this up?

I haven't seen this book, but in general I've always been astonished by how _low_ printing costs are even for full color hardbacks. A cost this high for printing alone would seem extraordinary for anything but print-on-demand.

"Printing cost" is probably too loosy-goosey a term. Perhaps the better sentence would have been: "I would guess—but do not know—that he will not make much of a profit off the sales of the book itself."

What surprised me with my book was just how much distribution and storage costs add up. Without getting into exact numbers, the printing costs themselves can be less than those costs, not even factoring in amortized costs. The comments that look at the per-page printing cost (2,400 / 400 = $0.16 / page) leave that out.

What would make more sense to me in this case would be the potential intellectual property (patents) that could come about from doing the research for such a book. Regardless, from my conversation from him, it's clear he loves the topic (as do I) and looks at it as a way to contribute to the world. In his case, it just happens to be a business expense as well.

Fwiw, authors really don't make that much money on books, excluding the very few at the top of the bestseller list. Nathan put it best: "How to make a small fortune writing a book: First, you start with a large fortune, then..." Having been through the process myself, I'd have to agree with the sentiment.

A $600 cookbook? Well it has at least one thing going for it: it differentiates itself from most alternative products in the category by being so damn expensive that it could be seen as an ultra premium brand that only the rich could afford.

Back to my ultra cheap and healthy rice that does not require any cookbooks to make...

This isn't a cookbook. It's TAOCP, every volume, including the unfinished-but-planned ones, for cooking. It is fully expected to knock pro chefs on their asses.

Looking at the pictures at http://modernistcuisine.com/ , I see a strong sense of precision and symmetry.

Reading about the volumes, I see sentences like new ingredients such as gelling and thickening agents, emulsifiers, and foams have found their way into every corner of Modernist cuisine.

Ever want to infuse liquid smoke into lettuce or noodles? Ehm, no, not really!

using prehydrated starches and hydrocolloids to thicken hot and cold liquids; making edible films

I won't touch this pretentious book with a ten-foot pole. Cooking is an art, a lore, not science or mathematics. And I want something more than "edible films" on my plates.

http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0... is a good book that discusses culinary science, and it costs a lot less than $450.

You should absolutely buy this book; it's fantastic and extremely readable. Flip to a random page: oh look, it's every herb used in mainstream and ethnic cooking in the west, broken down by key volatile compounds!

McGee's column in the NY Times is also required reading. McGee "broke the story" on gelatin consommes, for example (which by the way one of the coolest tricks ever: simmer anything in water for a few hours, strain, pour in 1/4 packet of gelatin, cool it, freeze it, and then let it thaw in a strainer in the fridge; the gelatin does for the broth what a raft does for a classic consomme --- just read the article; teaser: perfectly clear chocolate consomme ---

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html

I have the book and was disappointed, my experience was "OK let's learn about X" I search to find mention in the book, and I get something like "mostly harmless." Or something with much less information than in the first few lines of the wikipedia article about X. I still don't know where's any good stuff in that book. Anybody cares to explain?

McGee is very much a compromise book. For any given topic, be it science, practical cooking techniques or food history and anthropology there are several better books out there. But if you only want one book that briefly touches on all those things then McGee is a good introduction to many topics. Look at On Food and Cooking as a starting place to get inspiration for further research, not as a final destination.

Amazon link to book:

http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-Cooking/...

Gah. I hate saying it, but 600$ for 6 books?!

Im sorry, but i'm poor. He deserves money for his accomplishments but i'll wait for a torrent to be published. Then, I can at least read what he's doing and be awed. And then ii'll stick with my goodwill 2$ cookbooks and written down recipes.

Where to start?

* It's not $600; it's $425.

* That's not far from what TAOCP costs per-volume.

* The production quality (and costs) of these books dwarf TAOCP's; TAOCP isn't also a set of coffee-table books.

* They're vitally important to cooking as a profession; moreso because there are so few key books (McGee, New Pro Chef, La Guide) in cooking, especially compared to computing.

* Myrvhold poured a huge, vast, mind-boggling amount of research into these books; they aren't a get rich quick scheme.

* If $500 is too much (and it's too much for me!), you aren't the audience; you want Cooks Illustrated instead.

* "Waiting for a torrent": classy.

Where for me to start?

* Lost my job

* Sued for medical bills because insurance didn't cover what they said they would.

* Dumped my fiancé after horrendous fights and my emotional stability.

* Apartment complex broke my contract by letting her out of lease while holding me liable for the whole contract.

* Finally evicted and living in a spare room of good friends out of the goodness of their hearts.

* 3 month wait on unemployment in Indiana because employer disputed it.

* School is paid for, but due to medical condition when I failed school, they refuse me admittance calling it an academic issue - oxycontin, perocet, and hydrocodone = finals fail.

* My right arm can only bend in certain areas but load bearing above my head is less than 5lbs. Disabled enough for free schooling, but not enough for SS disability.

* 10% unemployment in this area.

So yes, maybe i'm "classy". However, you have no idea of my circumstances. Its not like I could afford it anyway. The lawsuits for garnishment for my medical bills have netted 0$. Cant get work. And im relying on my friends for food even, until food stamps are granted.

So go ahead, heap on the criticism.

Given your circumstances, why do you even have an opinion about $500 professional cooking books?

Sorry you got dumped on --- I'm really just commenting to point out that this is priced along the lines of TAOCP --- but really why are you even thinking about this stuff?

I meant what I said. Cooks Illustrated is excellent, and they publish so many books every year that you can get (absolutely great) older editions for ultra cheap.

And also, I meant it: don't torrent books.

So because Im poor, I shouldn't keep reading about all sorts of things on the forefront of technology, or at least form some sort of an opinion? And money is hardly an indicator of intelligence.

Yeah, my situation sucks. Really sucks. However, I will still keep learning and doing, even if I have to skirt the law here and there to do as such. And if your point of not using torrents is because it's "bad", guess that makes me bad. I've downloaded all sorts of material, quite a bit which is not offered in any format.

And yes, when I was better off, I did buy stuff that I could easily have gotten for free. But your high and mighty attitude would never excuse it for any reason, an attitude I despise.

When I was broke I read lots of books but certainly didn't care about what a patent trolling dong from Microsoft thought about Sous Vide (still don't). Maybe that's what t.ptacek meant?

Patent troll or not, you (probably --- I don't have the books) have to respect the effort. The guy has a zillion dollars and has chosen to spend some of it to make the largest possible impact on cooking. That's pretty cool.

I'm sure it's cool but it's a topic I have no interest in.

You should read the section of SuperFreakonomics devoted to him before dismissing him as a patent troll. If that book is to believed (and I'll take the word of Levitt and Dubner, distinguished authors who visited his lab, over that of Michael Arrington any day) he's a pretty swell guy.

Yeah I've read that. He's an interesting guy but still kind of the textbook definition of patent troll.

That's because "patent troll" is a derogatory term made up by people who are opposed to the very idea of patents. It comes from people who are frustrated by the patent system (often rightfully so) but aren't intelligent or knowledgeable enough to propose real solutions that don't undermine the basis of our economy and instead want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It's the tech equivalent of calling someone a communist. It's a valueless ad hominem.

Are you sure you have exhausted all free sources?

There is tons of free literature out there in digital formats, I find a lot of the manuals I am looking for just searching this website.

Because it's the internet. You're supposed to have an opinion about everything here! And you must express it at every opportunity.

I guess I'm no-one to complain.

I'm a geek though, and more bothered by the illogic than the morals. "I'm unemployed and failed school and broke up with my girlfriend so a 6-volume set of books on modernist cuisine should cost me $0".

If he had just thrown "and my dream is to become a chef" into the mix my nerd cortex would have been at peace.

so a 6-volume set of books on modernist cuisine should cost me $0

Actually, he never claimed anywhere that the book should be available to him for zero dollars. He said he'll wait for the torrent.

That's not quite the same thing.

If he had just thrown "and my dream is to become a chef" into the mix my nerd cortex would have been at peace.

Where do you get off being such a fucking good writer? What a delightfully perfect sentence. You make me sick.

Ok, I'm embarrassed now. :)

Thomas, can you expand on the "don't torrent books" statement?

1) Above, someone who's interviewed Myrhvold says the book is probably being sold for printing costs.

2) It's often suggested that Myrvhold wrote this book to advance the field rather than to make money.

3) A legal alternative would be to check the book out from a library. Is this really a greater societal benefit?

I'm not suggesting the torrent is legal or a panacea, but are there not times when it's appropriate? A cookbook is a harder case than TAOCP, but their information content makes them easier to argue than music or movies. Should one just do without the information one can't afford? For bright but poor students to remain ignorant?

Do you feel that there's always a better alternative, or that the collateral damage is too great?

If Myrhvold wanted to give the book away for free, he'd have put it on the web. Maybe he still will! The rest of this comment is just rationalizing. Going to the library to read the book is inconvenient (no library is going to let you check this book out; most libraries won't even have it for a couple years). The convenience you want costs $500. But you don't want to pay $500 for convenience, so you take it instead.

Don't kid yourself; you're not torrenting books to get access to the knowledge inside of them. You're torrenting them because you don't want to pay the convenience fee the publisher and author decided to charge.

Don't expect universal sympathy for this endeavor on a site dedicated to people who earn their living creating and selling intellectual property. I'm actually surprised people here are as supportive of piracy as they are.

> If Myrhvold wanted to give the book away for free, he'd have put it on the web.

I agree. Not that he should be ashamed of this, but from this I'd conclude that his primary goal is not the advancement of knowledge as some have stated. Possibly he thinks maintaining a for-profit system of IP is more important, or possibly, because of his public stature, he doesn't feel it's possible for him to make it freely available despite his desire for the information to spread.

> Don't kid yourself; you're not torrenting books to get access to the knowledge inside of them.

This is technically true, but only because I've yet to read torrents any books that I don't already own. I was recently excited, however, to find a torrent of one of the most expensive books I own, Angelo Corvitto's "Secretos del Helado",(in Spanish and 150 Euro, but the best book I've seen on making ice cream), as it enabled me to refer a high school student in Montreal to a passage that I thought would help him in his endeavors. He, I warrant, was "torrenting books to gain access to the knowledge inside of them", and despite the ethical ambiguity, I'm glad that he is able to do so.

> Going to the library to read the book is inconvenient (no library is going to let you check this book out; most libraries won't even have it for a couple years).

Yes, this is true. I've checked out different volumes of TAOCP by interlibrary loan at least three times, and I've been grateful for the privilege. I've read the El Bulli series sitting in a library (City College San Francisco has an excellent cookbook library), and am aware of the difficulties. This book will not be available by that means. How does that affect the ethics of reading a hypothetical illegal copy of this book?

> Don't expect universal sympathy for this endeavor on a site dedicated to people who earn their living creating and selling intellectual property.

I don't. I think it's a complex and thorny issue, moreso than you make it out to be. I've yet to come up with a position that would make the interlibrary loan and the used book purchase fully ethical, despite their legality. Personally, I'm working on a book that will be roughly equivalent to an expanded version of the ice cream chapter of Myrhvold's. My personal leanings are to make draft PDF's available for free, and price the book high, in the way that some academic authors do. But there are definitely tradeoffs.

> I'm actually surprised people here are as supportive of piracy as they are.

Yes. At a certain point this might make one reconsider one's own position. :)

I'd love your answer to the last question in the parent, though: is it that there is a better alternative, or that the collateral damage (reducing the market for future works) is too great?

ps. I'm not asking for an excuse to torrent this book. Oddly, I'm one of the few people who will likely buy it.

Isn't this the same guy who makes money patenting obvious things in programming and computer science and then collecting taxes on others' hard work? I'll pass thanks.

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