Coffee shops are taking Wi-Fi off the menu | Hacker News Reader

Coffee shops are taking Wi-Fi off the menu

latimes.com

39 pointsextantproject65 comments

A coffee shop I use gives you an hour of internet access with any purchase. They have a router with an attached thermal printer. The clerk hits a button, and prints a receipt with a password that lets you on for exactly one hour from then.

I see no problem at all with this. At the very worst, you're paying a couple bucks for internet access and getting a free cup of coffee or muffin out of it. If you're going to spend four hours there, I don't think it's asking too much for you to make a purchase every hour or so.

I feel guilty if I don't buy something at least once an hour.

I've had lunch with the President of a fair-sized coffee franchise in Canada and his stores give you a 1hr code with your purchase, but after that you can just go up and ask for codes each time they expire. He said 80-90% of people feel guilty and fork up another $3-5 for a drink/snack when they ask for a new WiFi code.

Other interesting tidbit: coffee sales are down a lot compared with tea (which also has higher margins). So if you run a coffee shop, a good way to distinguish yourself is to carry a wide variety of teas.

I've noticed that you can get tea that's not horrible a lot of places now. I wonder if that's cause or effect (or both).

Tea is hot right now, no pun intended. A few months ago I did a bit of market research for doing a tea-based startup. If anyone wants to do it, there's money to be made by simply blogging about exotic niche tea products, especially because most people drink absolutely garbage tea: there's room for education here.

A subject near and dear to my heart. I'm in Seattle, the coffee capital of the country. I've created a very comprehensive photo collection of paper cups from indie coffee shops ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/martincron/sets/721576066520024 ) and recently, I've found that I just can't bring myself to work from coffee shops anymore.

I tried for a few months to spend one day every week working away from my office, just to shake things up and to get some uninterrupted programming time. I just don't like the feeling of being some kind of freeloader.

I never felt right working through the entire day at one shop, so I would hit up one shop in the morning, have lunch, and then go to another. After a while, ordering beverages felt like a chore. Another americano? Bleh. Mint tea? Meh, I guess so.

The other part is that there's value to the whole "third place" concept; where home is place #1, work is place #2, and community is place #3. If you work from a coffee shop, it makes it harder to actually relax and enjoy the coffee shop later. Also, it's harder to actually relax and enjoy the coffee shop when it's filled with people on their laptops all day. There are a handful of places I don't bother going to because it's so difficult to find a place to sit (Greelake Zoka, for example).

What I really want to do is find a good co-working space to be my "second place". I signed up at one last month, but they kind of fell apart. Any Seattle area HN folks have experience with local co-working spaces?

I work at 15th Ave Coffee and Tea during the day (it's the original Crypto-Starbucks in Capitol Hill) and Liberty during the evening.

Actually, I'm sitting at Liberty right now while I wait for Xcode to deploy an iPhone app to my phone.

You should check out Liberty: couches, free wifi, sushi and great cocktails. You'll suffer diminishing returns on work, but it's still worth it :)

Back to your question, have you tried Office Nomads? A good friend of mine has a 'resident' membership there and loves it to death. I'm considering trying it out this week.

I'm going to be trying Office Nomads, probably next month. I like the idea of setting up as a resident, but I'm having trouble justifying the expense.

Likewise. $450 is a good chunk of cash, but at least the first taste is free. On the plus side of things, there are definitely some interesting characters who work there, like Kevin Moore (http://kevinmooreconsulting.com/)

I really shouldn't be too put off by the $450 (and the commute from Ballard to Capitol Hill). If I can be just a little more productive, it will be worth it, and the chance to work with interesting characters like Kevin Moore sounds great.

Maybe I'll see you there.

Had the same issues as you. Working from Cherry Street Coffee shop for a few weeks got old.

I'm currently working out of Office Nomads (just started 2 weeks ago). It's a pretty good atmosphere, I recommend it.

I actually prefer to work in libraries. Sometimes coffee shops are just too loud and the facilities at libraries are better.

For example, the NY SIBL has Aeron chairs and free wifi! Plus there is a starbucks next door for you to buy coffee from. What's not to love about that?

I also find libraries to have some of the best internet bandwidth, although a few have had an arbitrarily low bandwidth limit. I also like the quiet atmosphere, perfect for working on code.

This reminds me, I stay in Singapore and there's this policy in all libraries (we only have state libraries) that you have to read something when in the library to sit at a table. I've been chased out for doing work there for that reason.

So if you have an open book beside your laptop that you don't look at that much or even are working on math homework you'll be chased out?

where is that?

34th & Madison Ave

http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=new+york...

If they added coffee shops in libraries and made it a more social place I would be so there. I go to coffee shops or Barnes & Noble for the atmosphere. People humming around me, having their conversations, laughing with their friends, really helps me to concentrate on my work. Right now libraries are just plain depressing. They should probably stake out a section just for people to sit down to read their books along with their coffee and another section for those that want/need 100% quiet. Right now you would have to put a gun on my head for me to even come close to one. No offense to you or anybody who likes libraries but in my mind going to a library is equal to being old and decrepit and devoid of any passion.

It kind of makes me glad that libraries are dying.

Wow, where do you live? I have spent a ton of time in Seattle's, San Francisco's, and New York's public libraries, and all are fantastic.

Seattle's is by far the best though. Free, fast WiFi, good coffee stand in the library, helpful librarians, outlets galore, amazing architecture and an enforced no-sleeping policy (this helps keep it a place of work and learning, and not a homeless shelter, of which Seattle has plenty for those in need).

You can get great DVDs and books for free, and reserve them online if they're unavailable. It's basically Netflix for free.

The Business Library on 34th in NYC and the main library in SF at Civic Center are also pretty good.

In general, I think you have an outdated view of modern libraries. However, it could just be that you live in a city where all of what you said is true, in which case, talk to your local government and get it fixed!

That is great. Too bad there are none like that around where I live.

Use to live a couple blocks from Seattle's main library. Had serious library withdrawal when I moved away.

where did you live around there? I didn't know there were any apartments or condos in the vicinity.

It is one of the last, stuck between hotels. Lived in that corner, http://bit.ly/aOlo0q 6th and Marion

oh, i totally forgot about that building. i dated a girl about 3 lifetimes ago who lived there.

It kind of makes me glad you don't like libraries. And wonder if it was people like you who burned down the library of Alexandria to make coffee.

I would never have burned down the library of Alexandrida. Not unless there were a backup for every book there. Then I would burn it down. :)

I think libraries are actually migrating towards the trend of being social study spots. At my old school, UT Austin, one library was actually converted to be an "academic center" which really meant a building with tables, couches, and desks for students to work at. Another library had certain floors where you were able to talk. I enjoyed these places.

I like coffee shops too, but I feel pretty bad about taking up tables and not buying coffee. So on days when I feel cheap, I'll just go to the library. On days when I feel like spending money I'll go to a coffee shop and buy a few cups (or one cup and put some money in the tip jar).

Funnily enough, I also enjoy the atmosphere/noise of a coffeeshop. I even once went looking to see if there were CDs or streams of coffee shop noise in order to try to emulate that effect without actually being in one. Unfortunately my search yielded no results!

I hope you are right. If libraries make this transition then they will get more customers and maybe even make some money to pay for expenses. I've also tried to replicate the atmosphere. Unfortunately, it seems that key ingredient is people. Which means that it cannot be reproduced on a cd. I find that if I'm not around people for a long period of time it starts to become difficult for me to work. I don't need to talk to them. I just need to have their positive auras around me, and I think this is in abundance in places like a coffee shop, were people go to relax and have a good time. Also the type of people that go there is really important. I see many people reading or working on their computers, and that is motivating.

The economics of libraries are different than you seem to think. Most are publicly funded institutions, and the funding is typically based on day-to-day usage (circulation, the number of people visiting, internet sessions, etc.). Late fees are little more than an incentive to actually return things, and are inconsequential as actual income.

Also, the exact needs depend on the neighborhood, but libraries help with a lot of social issues. I spent a fair bit of time helping kids who spoke little English with their homework, digging up resources for dealing with bad landlords and other legal complications, assisting with resumes and unemployment paperwork, etc.

If it was just another Barnes and Noble, it'd be different, but libraries are supposed to be a public resource for finding information. Research librarians were the original search engines, you know. :)

(Academic, medical, etc. libraries serve different roles, of course. I'm just talking about public libraries.)

The problem is that many of these libraries are underfunded. Not enough new books are being added. All the books that I have needed over the last couple of years I can never find them in a library. I've pretty much stopped relying on libraries and just go straight to Amazon if I really need a book. The additional funding could be used to buy more books or provide more services. At least I hope.

With the rise of the internet you can get almost any information you need from your computer. I haven't had the need to go and do research in a library for a long time.

> The problem is that many of these libraries are underfunded.

No kidding. People hate taxes, though.

Public libraries generally aren't going to be interested in stocking extremely niche-y technical books, anyway. (For that, try academic/research libraries.) Individual collections are stocked to meet the needs of the local patrons, and something that is 1) expensive, 2) only relevant for one person, and 3) likely to be obsolete in three years is not a high priority.

You might try http://www.freesound.org/searchText.php . I couldn't link my searches, but try 'cafe', 'lounge', 'coffeeshop', etc. Longest I saw was ~20 minutes, and was a lounge, so music, but more than nothing. And you can always record your own and share them!

Originally saw the site accredited in the movie 'children of men' [title possibly mangled].

Everyone is wired differently. This is exactly why I go to libraries to work/study and not coffee shops. Listening to people yammer away is the last thing I want when I'm trying to concentrate. I can't get a thing done in a coffee shop.

In SoCal, the Santa Monica & Beverly Hills main libraries have cafes. The Santa Monica one is especially nice.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ZSbyIsZYiKLjTpHZqub61Q?select...

So charge the freeloaders $30 or $40 a month for unfettered wifi access. Everyone wins. I don't get it...

Seriously, I can't imagine it would be a ton of work to set up a RADIUS-type server that would limit a given MAC address to an hour of access per day (I'm sure some products like Meraki's already have this or something similar). If the user wants to squeeze more time out of the wifi, they have to pony up.

I'm totally one of the people described in this article, except that I'm doing it in Seattle. If the cafe I went to every day wanted to charge me for taking up a seat for hours at a time, I'd happily pay them a monthly fee. It's cheaper than getting an office or joining a coworking space, after all.

You are correct. Why aren't coffee shop owners programming their own servers and setting up firewalls, can't be that different to making a coffee, or serving a cake?

Sure, your idea might work, but the cafe owners aren't aware of that, or don't want to outlay more money. Much easier to go back to the old way of doing things. Hey, maybe this could be a business for someone, go around offering your service to help these guys out.

I see a startup in the making. Providing the simple hardware/software for anyone who wants to set up wifi access.

Can someone pretty please provide outlet for my computer? I'll be willing to pay for the electricity.

Just buy two extra battery packs or a portable power supply that you can fit in your backpack.

You're not up to speed on the whole WiMax thing, are you?

Not so much. How common are they?

Getting more common every day. Clearwire is covering 1/3 of the population now and offers a small hotspot device.

http://jkontherun.com/2010/08/04/clear-ispot-4g-hotspot-for-... http://gizmodo.com/5192430/review-clear-spot-portable-wimax-...

I think there are established players in this space. Pronto Networks being one, but Boingo is the 800-lb gorilla.

Like I said, http://meraki.com/

Most coffee drinks are at least a dollar of profit, many are two bucks or more. They'd have to crunch the numbers themselves but chances are 30-40 is no where near the lost revenue/profit from having some one take an entire table everyday.

That only works if the cafe is at maximum occupancy every moment of every day.

Perhaps we might even need a new business model, a variation on Internet cafes which charge a more reasonable rate for Internet access. Coffee shops may not be ideal because they already profit from focusing on coffee -- and the atmosphere that goes with it -- but maybe a new business model which doesn't spend a lot on fancy decor or smiling employees might work. With the economic hit to real estate, including commercial, it should be possible to find a decent amount of space and just shove a load of desks, outlets, and wifi in there.

I don't think it matters much—everyone who cares about mobile net access now has a 3G connection somewhere on their person, either directly in their browsing device or tethered to it.

However, removing the power plugs will matter slightly. Running on batteries my Macbook can only get about four hours of browsing time at 50% screen brightness. Taking away the power plugs will keep people from camping out in the coffee shops all day long.

I do this from time to time, i.e. camp out at a barnes & noble bookstore for more than 6 hours. Once I was even there around 9 hours. Don't really care for wifi but I do need the power plugs. However, if they were to remove that then I would probably just carry a portable power supply in my back pack or extra set of computer batteries. Two would suffice for me. My problem would be though if they actually kicked me out. At least I do have a backup, Borders is right next to Barnes & Nobles. Although Borders is not doing so great financially so it may not be a backup for long. I wonder if it will have a negative effect in the long run if they become hostile to people that just love to hang out there. Who knows, it may just be a necessary evil.

I can see where free wifi could be a drain on resources. If someone wants to rent an air conditioned/heated cubicle space with a 300w power and open wifi for $2/5 hours.. go for it. I can't quite see the economics in that, but I'm sure prices vary. If people use it like an average human (read the boards/news, check email, surf a bit while having your morning coffee) it's great. When some are turning it into a much more pricey proposition a lot of customers won't want to pay $7-$10 for the coffee you have to charge when they weren't going to sit there all day anyway. Libraries rock for this, which is also incidentally what they are for - free info, silence and breathing room to those who can't set it up themselves.

I know the owner of the local coffee shop I go to. His internet is locked, but he gives out the code to any customer who asks. I've talked to him before about giving away internet and he didn't seem to think it was a big deal. As long as he has people in his store he's happy because they will eventually buy something. He also has book readings on the weekends and recently started staying open later hoping to catch kids who need to study now that school is cranking back up. Last time I talked to him he said the night time thing was doing better than he expected.

He is a bit more expensive than the chains, but his coffee also doesn't taste like crap :)

It seems like starbucks just reversed this. I used to have to use a registered starbucks cards and was supposed to only get 1 hour a day ( it never cut me off though). However recently I noticed that all the starbucks in my area have gone to free wifi. Just accept the terms and conditions and you're set.

this was big news a few weeks back: starbucks went free wifi nationwide.

Yeah, they just made that change a month or two ago. I'm going to guess that they figured out they were losing business to either smaller chains or mom and pop stores who were offering free internet.

Yep, I stopped going to Starbucks because coffee shop block away has free WiFi.

Airports that limit wifi access are really annoying (like the one in kuala lumpur at KLIA for 2 hours), especially when you have a long lay over.

And all the places that never bothered installing routers in the first place rejoice as they look progressive.

3G iPad to the rescue!

I actually have been using the iPad in coffee shops to catch up on email or read a technical PDF and have found that it's a much better feel than taking up a whole table with a big keyboard and looking for an outlet.

Of course for programming and the like I still need to be home with a real machine.

drink more fuckin' coffee instead of masturbating with twitter

lol - I loved this comment but I'm clearly in the minority.

Reddit is that way --->

I wasn't aware of any particular spatial orientation for websites.

Oh come on, that comment wouldn't even fly on reddit.

Woooo! My comment got killed! Because this sarcastic, snarky comment is surely better than one that remarks that even the parent comment was too stupid and inane to be popular on reddit. Thanks for the downvotes; really quite warranted here.

Yipee! Now this one's been buried! If I'm lucky, I'll get my account killed for having a couple of comments that are in the minority opinion.

Fortunately I know which direction reddit is! Ha

Less of a Nazi culture of suppressing views against the mainstream over there?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com