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Comment by _arvin | Hacker News Reader

I'll admit, I used to be the first to update to their latest betas, now I'm terrified to even install the public releases.

They have to do better than this. Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade? That's really weak. Releasing an update that undoes that? Pure amateur hour by the guys we really trust with privacy. Separately, lately they've treated me ridiculously bad (and it's _never_ been like this) at the Apple Store on a failed logic board for my 7 Plus to no fault of my own (saying I was 41 days out of warranty, sorry), so I called Apple Care and they promptly took care of it for me, but should I really have had to jump through all those hoops? Really soured me.

I'm also on 3-month long thread with an iTunes Adviser (hi Grant) trying to convert some damn gift cards from iTunes to Apple Store. The easiest request ever. Now he's just no longer picking up his phone, voicemail, or responding to emails. Can't tell you the frustration involved in this (my dad had accidentally selected Apple iTunes instead of Apple Store when redeeming his Wells Fargo rewards)

Having said all that, I'm still support these guys - why, I don't know anymore. That'll be changing soon, for sure.

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I've been feeling this as well and trying to put my finger on exactly whats going on. Despite all of their massive cash reserves, they seem to be developing a fundamental stinginess in just about everything customer facing.

Its really odd that a company riding so very high on cash would spend so much brand reputation to save a few pennies here and there. It was their generosity taking care of customers that helped their brand become so valuable in the first place.

Well they are still making crazy, paying less tax than the average American and stashing truck loads of cash offshore.

Only way to truly vote is with your wallet. But Android is no less evil. Google will sell your data like a slave master to the highest bidder.

when was their last home run? their cash is their only real asset

I'll air my recent horror story: my Mac Mini Server 6,2 (2012) has two SSDs I had welded together as a RAID-0 array. I updated from 10.12 Sierra to 10.13 High Sierra without a hitch. On 20 November I for reasons I know bitterly regret I decided to wipe my system and reload from backups... an exercise that usually takes six hours, max. I've run into issue after issue (High Sierra formatting the RAID array as APFS by default and then announcing that is not a bootable configuration, terrible RAID drivers littering my installer log with write errors and thus refusing to restore Time Machine backups onto the array once I reformatted it as JHFS+, and latterly some obscure kernel cache error that precludes booting)... long story short, twelve days after the fatal decision, my system is still not bootable.

And Apple Support is non-existent. Documentation about APFS and RAID is thin on the ground. Phone support told me in no uncertain terms that my Mini's number was not a Server so I could not access Enterprise Support, and of course the consumer level folks do not know anything about RAID (or even multi-drive systems). It's been a total shitstorm.

Never have I been so proximate to just dumping them and telling them to piss off, but I also know I won't, because I am too deeply invested in their integrated ecosystem (macOS, Mac Pro, MacBook, iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple Music...)... except I am starting to think it might make sense to tell them to piss off integrally and voting with my feet.

I am about to switch away from my Mac Mini Server:

It gets way to hot, more and more features are no longer available through Server.app, and Spotlight on MacOS Server has never been great (at least not better than on an up-to-date Synology NAS these days). Each update was a reason for bad sleep …

Since all the software we were using as local installations moved to SaaS, only file storage and Resilio Sync are left – band oth can be done with a NAS or cloud services like Google Team Drive / Google Drive File Stream. The latter has great reliability and many useful compliance features.

Install Ubuntu or Debian on it. Find linux alternatives to the solutions you use now.

For various options pertaining to the software that runs on it, that’s not an option... it’s a Mac Mini Server but it’s actually my main workstation.

I do have Linux and DragonFlyBSD machines as ’real’ servers, the former being a Mathematica grid for my numerical heavy lifting.

Install 10.12, then update to 10.13, then restore your backup. And now we're at it, why don't you use Debian or Ubuntu as server?

Despite being a Server, this is actually my main workstation. It just bought a server unit because I needed a RAID subsystem and opening up a mac to add/replace drives would invalidate the warranty (which has long since expired anyway, but wasn’t an enticing prospect when it was brand new).

As for Ubuntu or another Linux distro, I do use Linux and DragonFlyBSD on my servers and to host my Mathematica grid.

Maybe wait until more documentation comes out? I had the same problem except when I updated to High Sierra, not after. I had this problem on my hard drive that "corrupted" it in a way neither Disk Utility nor Terminal accessed from the masOS recovery could fix. And before you ask, this was network recovery, so the recovery image I was using was technically not on my hard drive-- meaning I could wipe the entire drive and reinstall macOS if I had to. Found out that I'd have to wipe it, update, and restore from my backup. Easy-ish, right? No. Once I updated, I was presented with a debacle as Apple just dropped AFP support in High Sierra. Problem is, I have been using a NAS to store my Time Machine backups. THE NAS CONNECTED TO MY COMPUTER USING AFP. I had to downgrade back to Sierra, restore from the network backup, back up my system to an external hard drive, wipe the Mac's SSD, update, and restore from the backup. Only took a few weeks to get all that done :) And nope, Apple support did NOT help with this. I read an article on HN a while ago about how Apple painlessly updated an entire Mac's filesystem without any hitches, and seemed to implement HFS+ backwards compatibility better than HFS itself. Whether that's true or not, High Sierra is by no means a painless update. And don't even mention the new root bug.

I can’t “just wait” because this machine (notwithstanding it being a Server) is my main workstation for doing financial modelling on.

You’ve just solved a mystery for me: at one point I was struggling (and failing) to get Time Machine to restore from my Synology NAS. Now you’ve explained why!

I was like you a number of years ago (iPhone, Macbook, iMac, etc) but decided it was time to switch rides. Google has a massive intensive to making switching from iOS to Android as easy as possible. But I do admit, it took some time to get used to Windows coming from a Mac, and bootcamp was not great for me on my macbook pro.

For someone who values their privacy at least a little bit, Google and Windows are no options.

Outside Pixel, updates on Android are an embarrassing shit show. I did a three year detour to Android, but never again. Update after update things were broken until and you had to wait 6 months to get an update that was supposedly fixing things.

As someone who considers privacy important, Linux and BSD are the only credible alternatives to the Mac. Unfortunately, a lot of software that I use nearly daily is missing, because the Linux ecosystem does not have a strong ISV ecosystem (Little Snitch, OmniGraffle, Things, DeckSet, LaunchBar, Alfred, Arq, 1Password, Tweetbot, Affinity Designer/Photos, etc.) and does not support some hardware well (Sonos, etc.).

True. And the cross-macOS/iOS app ecology is just too compelling. I’m captive.

the software you list shows a disinterest in considering alternatives. if you’re already considering Linux or BSD, it behooves you to also consider open source alternatives to your applications, especially when at least some of the responsible companies are currently engaged in predatory business practices (1Password).

BitWarden is a fantastic FLOSS alternative to 1Password, Emacs’ org-mode for Things is perhaps the finest of its kind and easy to get started with with a distro like Spacemacs, a plethora of Alfred alternatives, Marp for DeckSet, i could go on but at this point i just want to throw up my arms and shake you.

i’ve switched dozens who were sick of proprietary lock-in. it doesn’t sound like you’re sick enough.

I have a Linux desktop machine at home besides a Mac and regularly try open source alternatives. I also use org mode besides Things, and have a custom Emacs configuration with evil, ivy, magic, and whatnot.

However, the open source alternatives for the software I mentioned (and other software) are simply not good enough for me. The additional 'problem' is that open source software that I use, such as Emacs, Latex, compilers, etc. work fine on macOS.

(I used Linux and BSD full-time on the desktop from 1994-2008.)

You can't judge all Android phones the same. One Plus has pushed Android 8 a few weeks ago and their beta channel is on the November security patch.

Stop buying Samsung.

What data do you think windows sends to microsoft that macOS doesn’t send to apple? Why do you think windows has worse privacy than macOS?

I’ve been using “Apple” back since the NeXTStep/OpenStep days. My customised software is deeply tied to the platform.

A few years ago I grew so sick and tired of iOS’ arbitrary restrictions compared to Android that I skipped from the iPhone4S to the iPhone6+ with a Google Nexus 5 device, but it was a really hellish experience because I never managed to get things to sync right.

RE: converting iTunes gift cards to Apple store cards.

I’ve never heard of anyone being able to do this, iTunes gift cards can very easily be obtained for +20% off of face value and the same cannot be said for Apple store cards.

Dave, I'm losing my mind. $600 worth of iTunes Music gift cards, and my dad doesn't have an iTunes account.

It was the most honest mistake ever, but we're paying the price for it. Sent them all the documentation involved (including everything from WF). It's just converting money from one card to another, they _can_ do it, but they don't want to.

How isn't this a WF issue instead of an Apple issue? If your father chose an iRobot instead would you expect iRobot to transfer it to Apple Store credit?

As Dave said, iTunes cards are seldom sold at face value, often coming at up to 30% off. Apple Store credit is worth face value explicitly. This isn't Apple's problem. Sell the cards privately (you will take a loss) and be more careful next time.

I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer. Of course they can send him away. Is it worth that though?

I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer.

You universally can't transfer iTunes cards to Apple Store cards. I just got Apple Store gift cards with some Apple purchases -- are you saying that I just need to act disappointed enough to get it? That I need to be as demanding and foot stomping of a customer, then it makes sense?

There is a point where the customer is wrong. I'll take the downvotes, but Apple says no to countless people every year who make irrational demands. They still manage to exist.

respectfully, that's not nearly the same scenario as mine.

This was an honest mistake of selecting Apple iTunes instead of Apple Store. Sure, the mistake was certainly on our end, but Apple has always taken care of these easy requests.

Why? Because these things happen! And when you understand where the customer is coming from, and they have proven and shown all the documentation requested, why not service the request? Especially when you're the world's most valuable company, it makes no reason not to because customer loyalty is how you got there.

And also because it costs them nothing and they have nothing to lose.

This really should be a no brainer for Apple, even if they do t allow it.

> I'm also on 3-month long thread with an iTunes Adviser

In fact probably they already lost much more in support.

Yes, definitely agree.

WF was where I went to first and they were absolutely unwilling to help - but I expected that.

Apple's response was unexpected and I think that's why it soured me. I used to always tell people, just go to Apple they'll take care of it for you.

Privately selling was my last resort like you said, and I already talked to my dad that next time, let's just get the cash and use that anywhere, instead of locking it into Apple (he was about to buy an iPad Pro so he figured why not, bless his heart)

He loves that iPad Pro lol.

> How isn't this a WF issue instead of an Apple issue?

I'm imagining this as of those jeff@amazon.com emails. I do not imagine it would end up as "we have the customer's money, they made an honest mistake, so fuck the customer."

You nailed it. I couldn't make sense of it either. I wanted to forward the email thread to tcook@apple.com and be like Tim?? What's going on here man?

Apple is all about the customer (or was at least, shareholders can get pretty pissy these days), and I was trying to spend more(!!) at the Apple Store.

Either way I'm glad I shared my story, thanks HN.

_arvin, you absolutely should send that email to Tim Cook. This level of customer experience is just unacceptable.

I think I will, thanks for the encouragement. It's so unbelievably minor given everything going on in the world, but there was a lot of time invested into phone calls, emails, etc. that could have been easily avoided.

Quick screenshot of our conversation: https://i.imgur.com/bhw4K1k.png

It got to a point where I didn't want to email anymore in worries of being accused of harassing the guy. To this day, no reply or call back.

You spend all that time on Apple but simply took a pass to WF because clearly it is WF and your problem but you thought Apple is nice so you should hunt them down?

ksec, I saw your other commment as well. I want you to know I have no vendetta against Apple, just a long-time loyal customer that's been treated poorly lately on multiple fronts, that's all.

To be clear, I didn't take a pass at WF, they were so unbelievably helpful that I was like, wait--- why don't I just go straight to the source? And that's how I landed at Apple to help resolve this issue.

I'm surprised you think Apple can't (or should, in your words) this honest mistake. Mistakes happen, what can I say. I'm taking the fall for this even though it was my dad, but it just as well could have been your girlfriend, your brother, your mother. Doesn't matter, you'd want everyone to have the same level of customer support.

How is WF not the source? That's where the transaction happened. That's where you go to untransact.

You might want to remove the link. The image isn't censored when viewing the full image - only the thumbnail is.

Hmm, the image should be censored. I removed both of our names and my thumbnail since he didn't have one.

I think imgur just shows it funny (one with the black-out, one with the whitespace)

How is this a WF issue? I mean I’m no Wells Fargo supporter. They are the scummiest of banks, but in this case the money is probably sitting with Apple iTunes since it’s converted to an iTunes gift card. As a result it’s Apple that likely has control over it.

Also, a more relevant analogy would be if you accidentally chose a Roomba using your WF credit, it was delivered home, and then realized you actually wanted a Braava. You’d hope that iRobot would be ok with you returning the Roomba and then sending you an equivalently proved Braava instead. If they didn’t that would be even more excusable because it’s a physical product with shipping costs, etc. The scenario mentioned is a digital transfer of funds which should be significantly easier.

Because the unit value is entirely different? Apple Store Credit and iTunes Credit is entirely different thing.

Your Analogy is actually correct, exchanging items that is equivalent "value" or higher priced.

If you're at a grocery store and buy plantains by accident, do you go to the plantain farmer and ask for bananas? No, you have the grocery store refund the plantains, and then buy bananas. Definitely a Wells Fargo issue.

Easy for you to say. But money isnt just some "well you lost it, learn the rules!!" kind of clown show. Your attitude is entirely unempathetic. And its also misinformed. Companies WANT to please customers and don't mind doing menial support to make the customer feel better. OP is asking for a simple assist - the last thing good businesses wish is for a customer to feel at odds with the business, or likr they were taken advantage of due to confusion. Have you much experience using the goodwill of companies?? Or are you always blaming yourself and taking the punishment of monetary loss?

> Or are you always blaming yourself

This is called personal responsibility and is a good thing. Accept fault and move on. It's possible to try and ask for help for honest mistakes but you definitely don't blame them for it.

No one alluded to not taking responsibility. But mistakes happen. Some things are confusing. OP isn't blaming Apple. But he would like some help reversing a mistake that anyone could have made due to the confusion that having separate itunes and apple gift cards causes.

Apple Store, and with Genius Bar constantly running out of slot and shot on staff, they decide that the store is no longer a store but a communities meet up place......

Having said that. I dont think Apple should and could convert those Gift Card. iTunes Gift Cards have promotion and discount. I think that is entirely Wells Fargo's problem.

10.0, 10.1, 10.2 were all terrible. 10.3 on got better, but you continually have had these horrible pre x.x.3 releases that have been show stoppers.

I won't even touch Mac OS until it's past the 3rd revision. Reminds me of old Windows where you waited for SP3.

Somewhere between ios9 and 10.3 on an iphone6 things got noticably slower e.g. pauses lasting multiple seconds while doing things like scrolling. I suspected the filesystem update, but could be anything.

Apple are forward looking in development - meaning they don't seem to be doing much regression testing for things like performance with last years model - or if they are, they don't care.

I'm not letting ios11 anywhere near my phone based on the usability impact I've seen on others, which leaves me open to old security vulnerabilities. Microsoft security patch old operating system versions - its kinda ironic how the 2 companies have switched places.

10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 never shipped with these kind of issues: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep-23... (from the Ars High Sierra review)

That's the kind of thing Apple made fun of Windows Vista for in the Get a Mac ads.

Yea because no one was using them. Everyone was still on 9.2.

OS X sucked horribly until 10.2 and wasn't decent IMO until 10.3.

I ditched them for Windows 10 on a Dell XPS.

Android on a Pixel XL 2.

If Apple doesn't care to maintain any quality standards, then it's not worth paying the price premium. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least Microsoft is listening to their users!

> That'll be changing soon, for sure.

Changing, to who?

I am genuinely asking because I really don't see any alternatives, which I agree is unfortunate and sad, but, I just don't see them right now.

>Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade?

????

You don't find that true? Anyone with physical (or remote) access can type in root, with no password, and have full control?

????

I think you have a very limited understanding of the state of software security in general if you think that is true.

Bugs far worse than this are discovered on a weekly basis. This one is just easy to exploit so it’s been hyped up by people who would normally ignore slightly more technical descriptions of much worse vulnerabilities.

How so? If you own a macOS device and you weren't freaking out about the root bug, or all the other blunders that have been happening recently, then I think it's you that has the limited understanding.

Bugs like this are discovered regularly. If you are “freaking out” about this it is solely because you have not been paying attention before.

Describing this as “one of the biggest bugs of the decade” is insane when you see stuff like the Eternal* exploits released by TSB.

I think it is valid to take exploitability into the equation.

And the impact remains minuscule outside of the remote desktop scenario.

The attacker must already have access to exploit this, and one would have to be utterly clueless to expect that an attacker wouldn't be able to get root some other way.

Really? Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation or specialist knowledge are discovered regularly?

How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.

>Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation

Not the case here. This bug only¹ allows you to log into an unencrypted Mac, which you should of course never leave unattended.

>How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.

Are you equally worried about the DMA attacks which affect most computers and are not widely considered vulnerabilities?

It feels to me that you're creating a rather unrealistic threat model here.

>If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you.

If this isn't the case then why does the device contain data which makes a compromise by an adversary with physical access problematic?

>Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.

Only in an absurd scenario where you store sensitive plaintext data on a publicly accessible machine and expect it to remain secure. At this point no software is going to save you.

¹ Worth noting here that it also affects some Remote Desktop configurations which is the only actually somewhat serious part of this bug.

>It feels to me that you're creating a rather unrealistic threat model here.

I'm thinking of Macs placed on desks in living rooms, home offices and small companies around the world, accessible to spouses, flatmates, parents, coworkers, cleaners, etc.

99% of these "adversaries" will never have heard of various other ways of breaking into a computer and they might never do anything that actually feels like breaking in.

But if all that stands between you and reading all of your spouse's emails is entering "root" into the username box, that may be too much of a temptation.

Is it normal for people to be scared of their spouse reading their emails? That blows my mind.

The estimates of how many people have cheated on their spouses at some point vary betwen 15% and 70%. Many couples are going through conflicts, broken relationships and divorce.

So yes I'm afraid these things are a normal, if undesirable, part of life. And then there are all the other groups I mentioned (flatmates, coworkers, parents, cleaners).

Among the millions of Mac users, there will be many who don't want those around them to sift through their emails, browser history, bank account statements, etc.

I’ve been treated like shit at the Apple Store for years and years. I’ve been followed by employees relentlessly around the store even days after spending $3k+, ruthlessly ignored while even being helped (once had to be wait 25 minutes for one dollar in change because middle aged white man was more important than finishing my transaction, Apple employee had my dollar in their hand), I had my graphics issues ignored in my previous MacBook Pro which deeply affected its use. Eventually I sold the laptop (3+ years later) only have Apple within weeks say it was an issue and replace them with newer MacBook pros. My laptop never worked and all I got told was to “reinstall OS X.”

Apple is on track to become the shittiest most alienating company on the planet. For a company I loved, I don’t think I could hate them more and be more consistently disappointed.

I wish I didn’t dislike android because I’d leave this hot pile of apple shit behind at this point. Their focus isn’t on creating content it’s on consuming it. They’ve lost track of the creatives and innovators.

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