Gemini PDA: 20 years on, meet the all-new Psion Series 5 | Hacker News Reader

Gemini PDA: 20 years on, meet the all-new Psion Series 5

jmcomms.com

188 pointscstross69 comments

I had a Psion 3a, followed by a Revo and then a 5MX.

What was great about them was the ability to quickly flip them open and take notes, or run a command-line program in it's OPL language, pretty much instantaneously.

In the 90s this thing was in some ways more powerful than your regular desktop computer - it had pre-emptive multitasking, SSD storage, ability to use email and connect to the web via IrDA modem phones, as well as a built-in microphone and digital audio. It's Agenda program has still not been bettered in my opinion - giving you the confidence that your appointment is in the right place in the calendar (having just had a reminder come up on my pixel for an appointment meant for this time last year).

I tried to keep the dream alive with the Nokia E90 (which was too app focused and slow, sadly), the N900 (a fantastic machine, hampered by a very limited, tiny keyboard, and again, quite an app-focused desktop/phonetop). After reading online people repeatedly saying that I should just give in and use any modern phone with a bluetooth keyboard, I can now say conclusively that these people had no idea what the Psion was all about.

My hope is that they can make Android or Linux work well with this form factor. The hardware looks perfect (ok I'll admit I would have traded the colour screen for a kindle-like screen for the discretion and battery life), but the thing about the Psion was the speed and ease of operation. I really hope they pull this off!

One thought:

Back in 1997-2000, the Psion 5 was anything but niche; it was the leading paradigm for PDAs aside from the Newton/Palm tablet. (It died out due to a bad coincidence: Microsoft pre-announced the Windows CE 3 "Jupiter" platform, configured to look like a Psion killer on paper, right as Psion's CEO David Potter became seriously ill. Psion was sold off and left the field; meanwhile, WinCE 3 failed to set the world alight, and Potter survived.)

But back then, selling a million PDAs meant you were huge. Integration between featurephone OS and PDA functionality still lay in the future; indeed, the leading platform, Symbian, was a direct descendant of the Psion Series 5's EPOC/32 OS.

Today, we've got smartphones everywhere, but they mostly look very similar — small tablets with cameras and multitouch screen UIs. Probably not that many people will prefer a keyboard-driven PDA style of device. But there are so many more smartphone users out there that even a 1% niche market is probably bigger than Psion at their peak. Which is why Gemini is of interest: the Android market has gotten so large that it may now support odd alternative device formats.

But is "mini-tablet with a usable keyboard" really that odd of a device format these days? On Black Friday, I could have picked up something matching that description at a superstore for less than a C-note. It wouldn't have had the Psion lineage or perhaps not the build quality, but at the price point this device is going for, I don't really see the appeal unless that lineage really means that much to you.

Finding a clamshell with a proper keyboard is still hard. This folds up nicely and fits in a jacket pocket.

What kind of device are you thinking of?

(Disclaimer: I backed this)

I think the build quality and keyboard is absolutely key to this device; really if the keyboard isn't awesome, this device is a failure. Thankfully the developers appears to feel the same way. I hope to not be disappointed.

Probably not that many people will prefer a keyboard-driven PDA style of device

An iPhone with a bluetooth keyboard doesn't feel like it's keyboard-driven, it feels like a touchscreen GUI device with a second-class accessory only for typing into textboxes.

Is Android any different in regards to this "feel of being keyboard driven" - and is the Gemini customised at all around this?

I think that is something we'll have to look out for, because you're absolutely right that a phone plus bluetooth keyboard doesn't mean a good computing paradigm.

They've said that they've brought in a lot of keyboard shortcuts - for example for accessing the dock applications. It looks like they're recreating the Agenda app too, which was keyboard driven (the best bit was a pop-up month calendar with a press of tab, which folded out to three months then a year with repeated presses, which could be navigated by cursor).

On my android phone, a bt keyboard already has some shortcuts - like alt-tab to application switch, and I think the Windows key brings up the homescreen. You can get folders and files on the homescreen/desktop with 3rd party apps.

Damn it, I don't need another computer. I really don't need another Linux machine in my life, even if it runs Debian - which I like very much - and probably runs it very well. I don't have a use case for a machine like this, even if it does appear very much to be the pocket computer I've never quite managed to stop wanting since earliest childhood. But I'm a grownup now, with adult-sized responsibilities, and I don't want for more worthy purposes to which to put the money I would spend on this.

And yet...

It’s like you read my mind. It might be easier to bang on with its keyboard though. I’d definitely go with the Linux option over the android.

Have you tried termux?

My main worry about this device is that it will, like most modern phones, quickly become useless due to lack of software updates.

They're building it with Android 7, which was before Project Treble[1], so future updates are at the mercy of all the chip suppliers and their willingness to port their ad-hoc drivers to newer kernels.

When the device stops receiving updates, it won't be safe to use on the Internet anymore and things like out-of-date SSL certificates will break things (see e.g. this video[2] for what browsing the web on Symbian and MeeGo devices looks like today).

[1] https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/treble

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGji6DPwIYY&t=820

It runs linux natively. Even if android stops getting updates, you can update that as long as you like

Not if it needs a forked kernel to support the hardware (at least not without a lot of work).

Also, most GUI applications designed for a traditional GNU/Linux desktop system are not going to work well with a tiny, high-resolution touch-screen.

I wonder how convenient it would be to run i3 with a browser and an emacs window or terminal on the thing. That would cover a lot of possible use cases for me.

Is Emacs efficient with 2-finger typing?

With the handheld form factor revolution, we need text editors that use that interface as efficiently as Emacs and Vim use the full keyboard interface.

I would argue that the keyboard is already the optimal device to both input and manipulate text to the point where touch adds little.

I wasn't clear: I meant that Emacs and Vim are optimized for 10-finger typing on full-sized keyboards. We need something for 2-finger keyboards typical on phones, or more broadly something optimized for phone input (maybe including gestures, for example).

2 fingers is so comparatively terrible that there is nothing on earth you could do to make it better than connecting a keyboard.

VIM actually works pretty well on a phone as long as you find a way to input Ctrl and ESC.

Maybe with evil-mode and some judicious key remapping one could get by.

That's a very good question - do we know what the kernel patches are and how they're licensed?

This is an ARM android device, with possible Linux support, available sometime in the future.

If you want a x86 device shipping now with 2x the RAM and storage, and running an operating system that gives you the freedom to run a wider range of applications (ie Windows 10 or Linux) and if you do not care too much about the keyboard springs (ie are comfortable with a macbook like "chiclet" keyboard) check instead the GPD Pocket.

https://www.slashgear.com/gpd-pocket-ubuntu-editon-review-29...

https://www.reddit.com/r/GPDPocket/comments/6idnia/linux_on_...

I am getting one to run statistical software and Mathematica. Costs about $450 from China, also available on Amazon prime if you need it now.

I considered waiting for the Gemini, because it has LTE and a better keyboard, but the large bezel on the right of the screen made me decide against it. If they fix at least the screen I could consider getting a Gemini, even if the ARM cpu means I would need wine+Qemu to run some windows applications.

The GPD Pocket is, indeed, very nice. However, it's much larger and heavier than the Gemini.

The Gemini has two obvious advantages over the GPD Pocket. One is LTE; the other is its small size. Size restrictions were imposed on electronic devices permitted in the cabin on flights between certain middle eastern airports and the USA early in 2017 due to a specific terrorist threat.

While those size restrictions were not extended to cover EU/USA flights, and appear to be being relaxed, if they're revived we can expect a ban on flying with anything significantly bigger than a 5.5" phablet in the cabin.

The Gemini slips under the size bar; the GPD Pocket doesn't.

These are valid objections, but premature optimization is the root of all evil.

If these restrictions are extended, I do expect a GPD Pocket2 designed with these restrictions in mind, to fly just under the radar.

At the moment, the GPD Win2 is being designed, with a M2 SSD slot as many people complained about storage.

It is reasonable to expect a GPD Pocket2 after that. As many users are complaining about the lack of WWAN, I do expect it will come with LTE (and an outside screen to display the calling number) or at least a slot to add it in the M2 slot.

I spent a lot of time with the Pocket; I think the Linux niche (Gemini has that too) is a good one as there are plenty small devices with Windows 10 already, like the Mipad (very nice by the way and a lot cheaper, however you need to get an external keyboard) but not so many Linux ones. After getting used to the weird keyboard (few days) I find I love the screen, battery life, pointer nob and build quality. What could be improved; a bit smaller, wwan and keyboard backlighting. And possibly the keyboard itself. Then it would be perfect.

As a big thinkpad fan, I must say the Pocket trackpoint had a lot of influence in my purchase decision :-)

Basically, I just want a device that I can use like my thinkpad (open it, and use command line tools or x86 software though wine). The GPD pocket is the first device that got me this "thinkpad" impression. Also, I do not want a bluetooth keyboard. I do not want to fiddle with batteries/paring/any other software issue.

The keyboard is my #1 concern. I tried an apple bluetooth keyboard with an ipad for a while -- I think that is the highest available quality/ease of use, but even that setup was not satisfying.

Besides storage issues (no removable storage!), the wwan and keyboard backlighting other bother me.

I will certainly buy a GPD Pocket2 when they come out, and a Gemini if they fix the screen. I am still looking for the right device.

> As a big thinkpad fan

I have a stack of X220's with big batteries , which are still my favorites, but for travel it's not very good. If they break, they can be replaced for $50-80 which is excellent, but they are just too bulky. But that, indeed, made me a huge trackpoint fan. So much more comfortable than a trackpad imho.

> ipad

No 'unrestricted' OS is an issue when programming; I tried a lot of ways to do coding on Android/iOS but it's just not very nice. Linux is more obvious for me personally.

> I am still looking for the right device.

Yep. But at least choice is reaching us fast; it is possible to build the perfect machine for a few $100k in small runs; that used to be hard. When the OpenPandora came out, that was still a huge issue. Now it's actually possible. So i'm thinking more people will push for perfection. In my world, battery life is by far the most important; I don't care so much about cpu/gpu power (if I need that, I login on a server for cpu/gpu or memory work and I don't like 3d games; I like 2d games), but an empty battery is really annoying. As I travel a lot, I find myself with fine internet but scarce power and I need 10+ hours to work. With the OpenPandora (too low resolution/not very good screen and very annoying keyboard but removable batteries and good software community / hackers) or Pocket I am happy.

My dream setup would be:

- l x w size of the Gemini - h size more of the pandora (you need to give in somewhere for below features) - Linux (it's an expensive and full featured machine; it needs a full OS imho, or at least the option for one) - swivel (2-in-1) of the zaurus (that would be a dream but probably very hard to do); the zaurus was lightyears ahead of what they have now in that space imho; you had a little tablet but no keyboard in the way like those 2-in-1/flips usually have now - sd card slots of the pyra/pandora - ports of the pyra - storage of the Pocket (looking at the space inside the pandora now and the internals of, say, an Samsung ssd, it would be possible to fit swappable inards of an ssd drive, so that would make it even more perfect) - 4g/wwan of the gemini/pyra - usbc of the pocket (not sure about the pyra but the charger for the pandora is annoying; you can them charge with usb but that's very slow) - keyboard of the gemini/psion - screen resolution / quality of the Pocket (for me touch screen is not needed ; that would only be handy if 2-in-1) - trackpad of the pocket - hotswap batteries (aka little battery to allow for 3 minute swap window) of the x230+ - backlighting of the macbook

The thing i'm not sure about is casing; aluminium (Pocket) isn't very sturdy and plastic (Pandora/x220) cracks fast; I think I like the Pandora way better though; it's easy to replace the casing and it's less bothersome if it cracks. It looks far worse though. What would be a more rugged option?

The price could be higher as this is a niche device; only weirdos like me would buy it anyway but there are enough of us to make a few runs as prices fall for making this kind of thing.

We share many opinions! I need Windows or Linux. I can't do with restricted OS like android or iOS.

I also have a stack of thinkpads. When I need to travel, I grab one. At that price, I am not concerned about forgetting it in the plane, or a thief. And thinkpads do swivel!

I agree with your analysis of small computers ; besides all the things you list, I would love to see an eink display. In fact, a swivel with 2 screens would be ideal: one eink, one lcd.

A small run can now be done for cheap, and there is demand. Hopefully, someone will want to make a nice profit and deliver what we want.

Yep; i was thinking that on a flight yesterday; if only this Pocket had an eInk on the lid.... Kindle paperwhite fits nicely on there... And a physical (w)wan switch, also for the airplane.

I am not flying from the middle East but most airlines tend to be restrictive when lifting off and landing when it comes to devices like laptops. The Pocket no one cares about so far (and I fly a lot); they usually think it's a gaming device and don't ask me to put it away.

According to their IndieGoGo page, the Gemini is still in prototype stage - it hasn't yet entered production. Is it possible they can go to manufacture and ship devices in December?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-...

I've been considering ordering one - I loved the Psion, although I am not sure they will deliver on-time as promised.

Has anyone been following the campaign as a backer? What's the general feeling?

I backed it and we've gotten regularly updates. I believe they are in production now, or very close to it. Of course they are late, but so are practically all crowd-sourced ventures. They have demoed prototypes on multiple occasion (I haven't see it) so AFACT, it's for real.

These are the people that did the ZX Vega, I don't hold out much hope. Which is a shame, the Psion5 was probably one of my favourite computing objects.

I loved my Psion. I could actually use it to write documents or spreadsheets on a plane without problems. The battery also lasted really long.

I guess the success of this may be defined by the quality of the keyboard. The Psion's was just phenomenal.

Exactly this, sort of a super calculator and simple note taker. Not a fan of the price though at $600. I would have rather they had done a PS5 clone with a 200Mhz 32bit Cortex M CPU from ST micro and have the whole thing cost less than $100.

I paid $369 for a wifi/LTE early bird special on the Indiegogo campaign site. It's still available for $400 plus shipping; I don't know where you're seeing $600, but that sounds like a scalper price from a retailer claiming early availability.

the price is in the article.

I think that's a great price for a custom product which will not sell in volume. Look at the Pandora and Pyra for comparison.

I am looking forward to this device because I really love the form factor. I do think ti will fail however, the reason being why most of these kind of devices fail today: lack of focus on software.

Just slapping some form of android on you device doesn't make it great. Even if you do everything right, you are still just as good as all other major players in the market. But of course, most companies can't even ship android updates and start with old versions to begin with, so there is that. And android apps often are not really optimized for every other form factor that a phone in portrait mode.

So, then there are the ones with linux, like this one. Which is cool, because you can run whatever you want. But also, linux is mostly an afterthought for the device maker and even if it isn't, software is seldom adopted beyond installing a lightweight desktop and switching out some icons. and even if it were, linux really is not build for mobile usage today, so the UI will very likely still be really bad.

I think unlike there is much more focus on adopting software to these form factors, using these kind of devices will always be sub-par. And that's a real shame, because I feel they have such as much potential as pure smartphones. A portable computer that can really do some work and be nice to use for more than watching video is a problem no one seems to really have cracked yet.

This looks super cool, but I'm not sure I'd use it.

When the Series 5 was launched, there weren't a lot of good options for text input on mobile devices. The keyboard made a huge difference, because your alternatives were a full-size laptop, Graffiti on a Palm device or the awful resistive touchscreen on a WinCE device. The Psion 5 was the most useful productivity device that could fit in a coat pocket.

Today, touchscreen keyboards work well enough that a Psion 5-sized keyboard isn't a vast improvement. For less than $30, you can buy a folding Bluetooth keyboard that is barely bigger than a phone when folded, but gives an almost full-sized keyboard when unfolded. The Gemini's fixed keyboard makes it impractical to use as a phone, but isn't as good as a folding bluetooth keyboard. Loath as I am to admit it, I think it's simply an obsolete form factor.

If the keyboard snapped on magnetically, I might have given it serious consideration. As it is, I just don't see where such a device would fit into my workflow.

https://www.amazon.com/iClever-Portable-Keyboard-Bluetooth-W...

I have never seen a keyboard as small as the Psion's that felt as good. I hope they can replicate that.

The keyboard linked to above is a full size keyboard. The keys are quite ok. When folded, it's nearly quadratic, probably taller than a Psion 5. There are smaller versions of the keyboard that might use the same keys. While I loved my Psion 5mx and the keyboard was astonishing, especially in comparison with the Psion 3, I don't think it was better than these cheap Bluetooth keyboards.

Even the Palm folding keyboards - especially the rebranded Stowaway XT, but not excluding the original three-fold Portable - were better by far than cheap Bluetooth keyboards are today. It's not even a contest. Sure, for a few keystrokes here and there, you don't really feel the difference - but if you're spending more than a few minutes a day typing on it, you surely do.

I tried cheap ones and you are right. After I bought the MS foldable keyboard I stopped looking. It is perfect imho.

The MS foldable has really nice keys but the gap between the two halves is rather annoying on the long run. The above keyboard has no gap like the original stowaway keyboard.