What the Stoics did for us | Hacker News Reader

What the Stoics did for us

newhumanist.org.uk

179 pointskawera57 comments

You can download Marcus Aurelius' Meditations for free at my project, Standard Ebooks: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation...

The translation is good and Meditations is one of my favorite books. Super interesting to get an inside look at how the most powerful man in the world used Stoicism to deal with both the weight of an empire, and with day-to-day trivialities.

The Enchiridion is another Stoic "manual" that's very short and just as good: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/the-enchiridion/...

For what it's worth, the Hays translation of Meditations is much easier reading.

I also like Robin Hard's translation quite a bit.

I surveyed a bunch of translations a few years back, comparing them to one another and to the original Greek, trying to find the best accuracy/readability balance. Landed on Maxwell Staniforth's. There's a paperback available from someone (Penguin?) and it's the translation the Folio Society used for their Meditations, if you're into above-average-quality hardbacks.

Totally agree, thats Modern Library publication.

Off-topic, but I’m a big fan of your project. It’s an important work. Kudos for doing it so well.

Agreed, it's fantastic. A little thing, would like to browse/filter by categories (or maybe see popular books).

This is quite a project, I'm very much impressed especially after having discovered the severe limitations and leaving much to be desired of the project guttenberg content https://ebooks.stackexchange.com/questions/7438/how-does-pro.... I very much like the "technically minded reader" orientation you all espouse.

Don't confine yourself to Epictetus' Enchiridion; his Discourses are a delight, especially as translated by Oldfather:

Books I & II: https://archive.org/details/epictetusdiscour01epicuoft

Books III & IV: https://archive.org/details/epictetusdiscour02epicuoft

anybody here was surprised realizing how much of life was known to people 2000 years ago, and no matter what the society and technology .. these ideas do matter

The people then were the same human species as today, and there's no reason to think that they understood human nature any less (in fact I think people today have a lot of trouble understanding human nature).

sure, but how many have this feeling that we're progressing, we're modern, we have everything but still some very important notions are hidden in antique books in your library

whats two thousand years to a species of over a hundred thousand? even considering the time from the last ice age only, the relative difference is that of an 8 to 10 year old. yet, it is astounding nevertheless.

For those who may be interested:

Fr. Alphonsus Rodriguez, S.J.[1] (d. 1616) has sometimes been called a "Christian Seneca".[2]

I had never heard of him or his major work Practice of Perfection and Christian Virtues until 2004, when someone I met on a retreat recommended that I hunt down a copy of Joseph Rickaby's[3] masterful translation from the original Spanish.[4]

I had the opportunity to read through PPCV over the period of about a year back in 2007–08, and I can only say that it leaves a remarkable and lasting impression. I would think his treatises on humility, examination of conscience, and mental prayer (meditation) would be of great interest even to those who aren't particularly religious — i.e. the practical wisdom contained therein is like a toolkit for coming to "know oneself" for true.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_Rodriguez

[2] http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2540029

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rickaby

[4] https://archive.org/details/PPCV-Manresa

There is also a youtube video by the same guy that wrote the article. I found it to be quite interesting (much of the points in the video are the same as in the article, maybe in a little more depth).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seLLJP3H1FU

One of my favorite quotes is attributed to the stoic Epictetus:

   If anyone tells you that such a person speaks ill of you,
   don’t make excuses about what is said of you, but answer:
   “He does not know my other faults,
   else he would not have mentioned only these.”

I'm a forensic psychiatrist, and I work in corrections. I have been finding myself recommending books on stoicism to some of my patients after reading a few myself.

It's a useful counterpoint to the modern idea that if your life is not Instagram/Pinboard material then you are a failure.

Can you share some recommendations here?

How to be a Stoic by Massimo Pigliucci (author of the article)

A Guide to the Good Life by William Irvine

I also read The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday, which read too much like a self-help/business book to me. It might be to some people's tastes, but I found it lacked the substance of the two above. Ryan Holiday does have Daily Stoic email newsletter which is often interesting, though.

Edit: Also, the 2003 Hays translation of Meditations is a much more accessible version of the text. I wish it was still in print.

I've read The Obstacle is the Way and Ego is the Enemy. I like his writing, but there is a business-y type of vibe to it.

I also recently picked up The Daily Stoic book, which does help me get into a Stoic "mindset" (for lack of a better term) to start my day. Although with the way Meditations by Marcus Aurelius is written, you could almost just open up to a random page each morning, read a passage and reflect. But so far I've enjoyed this book.

It most certainly is still in print. Fantastic translation.

How to be a Stoic changes the historical context of Stoicism to suit Pigliucci's personal views. I do not recommend that book, since his good bits are borrowed from The Inner Citadel. The author lost my respect when he supported the revisionism of the BBC. https://medium.com/opacity/comment-on-klueless-massimo-s-com...

This short essay by GILBERT MURRAY is the best introduction to Stoicism: http://ia600304.us.archive.org/13/items/thestoicphilosop00mu...

After that, you can dive into:

- EPICTETUS, Discourses, Fragments, Handbook (Oxford World's Classics. It features both Enchiridion and fragments)

- MARCUS AURELIUS, Meditations (Oxford World's Classics)

- Any collection of letters and essays written by SENECA

- PIERRE HADOT, The Inner Citadel (Harvard Press, Translated by Michael Chase)

Don't rush through the material, think deeply about every page you read. Don't forget to understand the life and history of each author. Context is extremely important. Don't let modern sensibilities fill the gaps. If you're looking for a solid introduction to traditional logic, I recommend you Socratic Logic, by Peter Kreeft. Lastly, the only way to truly understand Stoicism is to learn about Socrates and Plato as well.

For Seneca, U. of Chicago Press has been releasing a series of new translations[1] over the last few years. Good, if a bit expensive. May be some on the used market by now. Hardship and Happiness would probably be the most useful one if you're looking for his work on Stoicism, followed by Letters on Ethics, then Anger, Mercy, Revenge. They may eventually do a one or two volume "best of" compilation as sometimes publishers do when they release these long, expensive series, and maybe paperback editions. Dunno. There are ebook versions of them if that's your thing.

[1] http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/series/CWLAS.html

Maybe I misunderstand stoic philosophy, but the rule to override emotional responses to failure with serenity strikes me as overly broad. Sometimes it is simply easier to get angry and let it out; especially if that sends a valid corrective signal to someone who is at fault. And even if the failure was just bad luck, it seem totally fine to be mad for a couple of minutes or hours. It is simply the way our brains have evolved to work and that's fine as long it is not harmful as long as nobody is harmed. Just be careful to not turn it into a constant state of anger because that will likely worsen your life rather than improve it. All of that can be subsumed under rationality.

I think you are referencing more of the conversational definition of stoic rather than the philosophy of stoicism.

Agreed. The Stoics allowed themselves to have emotions. It is a common misconception that stoicism is about deadening feelings and reactions to the world. Stoics acknowledge and even embrace our emotions, but what stoics aim for after experiencing emotions and gut reactions is some of the most interesting parts of stoicism for modern readers.

I always direct people to http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/goldsay.html for a taste of Stoicism. It is still tricky because what most Stoics thought of as "God" and what a modern reader would interpret as (the Christian) God are pretty different, but it is still easy reading. Other than that caveat it is pretty easy to understand.

As a sort of random aside, some of the most memorable sections of Epictetus for me are when he would referee to a pupil or discussion partner as a "slave". It always gave me a good chuckle. "My nose is running." "Why do you have hands, you slave?" e.g. quit complaining and wipe your nose. The color of comments like that really gives a feel for when the stoics think someone is being dense or wasting their mind. Some of the time now, when I am feeling particularly sorry for my self, Epictetus will pop up in my mind and call me a slave for complaining and it really helps me get over whatever random thing I was fixated on.

It feels like an older version of "sheeple".

In terms of modern Stoic writing, I find Ryan Holiday's "The Ego is The Enemy" and "The Obstacle is the Way" (as well as his "Daily Stoic", although that's more of a daily devotional) to be very enjoyable and help to reframe the often hard-to-read writings of Aurelius, Seneca and Epictetus into actionable advice.

What is the singular of sheeple, anyway?

Errson?

That is the best comment I’ve seen all year. Bravo.

Met Ryan in person when he was on a book tour for Obstacle is The Way. Predominantly he is the one to introduce me to Aurelius and Stoicism in general. What do you think of Ego is The Enemy, a worthwhile read?

Aurelius, at least, doesn't rule out or condemn immediate physiological or knee-jerk emotional responses IIRC. The idea is to stop feeling the ones that are, it turns out, something you're choosing to feel past those initial couple seconds, assuming feeling them is unpleasant and/or unproductive (usually they're both).

It was less about eliminating emotion and more about recognizing what is and is not within our control, and not letting ourselves become mastered by things outside of our control.

Stoicism is about letting go of the things you CANT change, so that you have more energy and ability to focus on the things you can change.

If someone has wronged you, and sending a corrective signal is in your power, than Stoicism would be favor of you fixing that problem.

But... if on your way to fixing that problem, it were to rain on you, Stoicism would be against you getting angry at the clouds.

> modern idea that if your life is not Instagram/Pinboard material then you are a failure.

what is this idea, and is it new?

for example, HN is ment for constructive discussion and some people mistake it for a chance to post snidy, rhethorical questions or sarcastic answers.

A good summary of my go-to Stoicism book:

http://becomingeden.com/summary-of-a-guide-to-the-good-life/

The book they are summarizing: A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195374614/ref=as_li_ss_tl...

Ah nothing like being down voted for trying to help

Welcome to Hacker News: "We're Reddit with a better vocabulary!"

Stoicism was the only philosophy that I felt was practicable in he real world today. It reminds you that you have control over your own thoughts and you can choose how to respond to outside events. You can appreciate what you have now by negative visualization and remembering there was a time when you wanted it more than anything. That your hard work is good for your own soul even if no one else appreciates it. That life is fleeting, people will leave you, will die and betray you but not be surprised when it happens.

I am in no way affiliated with this site or mailing list but I can't recommend this site enough, it's the only mail I always open in the morning. It's nice everyday to get a new tale of how someone was stoic in a difficult situation. https://dailystoic.com/

i dont mean to sound snarky, but i thought this was just 'growing up'.

You don't, I think that's fair.

Everyone comes from a different background and sometimes the people around you don't "Grow up", so you never learn it yourself without discovering a new book that gives you this insight. I guess that was the case for me, and just wanted to share my thoughts with others.

I made a simple Chrome extension in the Chrome Web Store that shows a stoicism quote and serene wallpaper in each new tab: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stoikk/hghegkdflff...

Any recommendations for improvements/features/etc are always appreciated.

the text of the quotes takes way too long to fade in. in fact, i'd remove the fade entirely.

otherwise, nice work, thanks.

Thank you for the recommendation - I have added an options menu to allow users to turn off the fade in animation.

It is pretty interesting to see Stoicism in a modern context too.

Albert Ellis developed Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy (REBT) in 1955. And later started the Albert Ellis Institute (http://albertellis.org/) with the aim of research and education in this area. Ellis refers to Epictetus in his first major publication.

The primary framework is described really well here (http://www.intropsych.com/ch13_therapies/a-b-c-d-e_mnemonic....) and is actively used in Behaviour Therapy to treat several forms.

So if I'm getting this right, Stoicism mostly just encourages pragmatic action and acknowledges the dichotomy of control?

So it's basically Taoism?

Quite likely just the same basic ideas under different packaging, yes.

Though classical Stoicism did have a bunch of other beliefs mixed in about god, nature, and science, but people mostly ignore those parts and focus on the parts that apply to day to day behavior.

Probably the most prominent display of stoicism (well, almost a mockery of stoicism) is the Jedi Order in Star Wars.

...which also illustrates some of the problems of stoicism, IMHO.

"You desire to LIVE "according to Nature"? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power--how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live--is not that just endeavoring to be otherwise than this Nature? Is not living valuing, preferring, being unjust, being limited, endeavouring to be different? And granted that your imperative, "living according to Nature," means actually the same as "living according to life"--how could you do DIFFERENTLY? Why should you make a principle out of what you yourselves are, and must be? In reality, however, it is quite otherwise with you: while you pretend to read with rapture the canon of your law in Nature, you want something quite the contrary, you extraordinary stage-players and self-deluders! In your pride you wish to dictate your morals and ideals to Nature, to Nature herself, and to incorporate them therein; you insist that it shall be Nature "according to the Stoa," and would like everything to be made after your own image, as a vast, eternal glorification and generalism of Stoicism! With all your love for truth, you have forced yourselves so long, so persistently, and with such hypnotic rigidity to see Nature FALSELY, that is to say, Stoically, that you are no longer able to see it otherwise-- and to crown all, some unfathomable superciliousness gives you the Bedlamite hope that BECAUSE you are able to tyrannize over yourselves--Stoicism is self-tyranny--Nature will also allow herself to be tyrannized over: is not the Stoic a PART of Nature? . . . But this is an old and everlasting story: what happened in old times with the Stoics still happens today, as soon as ever a philosophy begins to believe in itself. It always creates the world in its own image; it cannot do otherwise; philosophy is this tyrannical impulse itself, the most spiritual Will to Power, the will to "creation of the world," the will to the causa prima." Nietzsche

Audible has a Daily Deal on Meditations for $1.95.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Classics/Meditations-Audiobook/B0...

You can also download Tao of Seneca from Tim Ferris' blog: https://tim.blog/2017/07/06/tao-of-seneca/

Am I the only one who feels this is just another ism being packaged in a trend-friendly form? IOW, stop, think, don't make an ideology an inseparable part of your self-view. Ironically, that seems like an idea the stoics might have endorsed.

If Christianity is Java and Buddhism is Haskell then Stoicism is like Scala - easier to digest from the Western point of view, but not all the way there.

On the advice of a friend, I bought https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Wisdom-Persev... a month ago. It's been an enjoyable morning read and a very approachable introduction to the philosophy.

I highly recommend the free courses on Stoicism by Donald Robertson: https://learn.donaldrobertson.name

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