Hacker News Reader

Comment by bestest | Hacker News Reader

The relay attack is very old and is very commonly used to steal all kinds of cars, here in Europe it's mostly Toyota.

You do not need the key to be present in the car once it's started up. It's a feature of all key-less cars. For example, one would not want the car to suddenly stop if the key's battery dies on the go.

So, once you start the engine, it will run. It will complain and beep if the key is not present in the car, but it will run.

They suggest to use a steering lock to avoid this, which would indeed help, but it's quite cumbersome. A more convenient way is to store your key in a special keyless key protector "pouch" when you're not driving your car, which is basically a Faraday Cage, blocking it's signal.

View on HN

If the key battery dies, there is a spot on the dashboard that is NFC-equipped, so you just need to get the key next to it and it will ID regardless of the battery state.

> It will complain and beep if the key is not present in the car, but it will run.

Have you checked that? My assumption was that it will shut down the engine once the speed drops to zero.

Your assumption is incorrect. It will run until the car is turned off. If it behaved as you're assuming it would be wildly unsafe, imagine someone inadvertently dropping off a passenger who has the key with them in a purse or jacket pocket, then stopping briefly on a bridge without shoulders, or a railroad crossing.

So now when you are on the highway you need to suddenly search your bag for the key so you can insert it.

> Have you checked that? My assumption was that it will shut down the engine once the speed drops to zero.

Not in any implementation I've heard of (and it would be quite dangerous and irresponsible). Actually, one story I've heard from pretty much everyone I know owning a keyless car is that the driver drops of a passenger that unknowingly had they key all along (typically a spouse). The driver then drives along, fills up for gas or make some other stop and then can't start the car anymore because the key is with the long gone passenger.

An anecdote, but my car (2015 fit) does keep running when the key is removed. It'll complain, but keeps running until you turn it off.

this is standard requirement in case your key fob just breaks down while you are on the highway for example

>They suggest to use a steering lock to avoid this, which would indeed help, but it's quite cumbersome.

atleast in my non-keyless car the steering lock is quite easy; pull key, rotate steering wheel until lock, done.

Once you've done it a couple times it becomes second nature.

I believe they are talking about aftermarket steering locks that fit onto the steering well such as https://i.imgur.com/C2rIjyq.jpg

They were fairly common in the U.K. Back when car security was even worse as it is right now.

The non keyless steering locks can usually be defeated with a few swift hammer blows to the lock cylinder to dislodge the locking pin from the steering column.

Now that’s not to say these after market locks are “secure” as they two have their weeknesses (cut the steering wheel and slide the lock off, use of cheap locks on the device, etc) but they give a visual deterrent to people just driving past and deciding to take your car.

>The non keyless steering locks can usually be defeated with a few swift hammer blows to the lock cylinder to dislodge the locking pin from the steering column.

My Opel had a definitely safer construction, IIRC the entire thing is welded together so you can't unlock the steering lock without taking apart the entire locking mechanism with a welder halfway into the motorblock.

Of course it's not 100% but it should defend reasonably against people trying to steal the car who don't own a blowtorch and 3 hours of unobserved welding at my car.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com