Comment by 09094920394314 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by 09094920394314 | Hacker News Reader

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> How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave?

>If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

If you can convince enough people, you can? But if people organize against you, be a good loser. Nobody except the very hardcore is saying:

>If private property is so great, then everyone who wants to have it should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to accomodate them

to argue against private property or capitalism. But the same social contract that allows for private property can decide that if you want to have its benefits (e.g. the aforementioned private property) can recognize and protect the hard won rights of unions and workers. Stealing a bit of rhetoric, those who don't like it can go to some warlord ridden backwater, I hear there you are free to not follow any social contract if you are up to it

And this is why I will never ever support a union in my industry (tech) .

Fortunately, the rest of my industry agrees with me.

And ALSO, fortunately, union support is massively going down all across the US.

It looks like that social contract of yours is changing. Perhaps because of attitudes like yours.

I will not "be a good loser". I will oppose union efforts anywhere and everywhere, no matter what, because any power they get anywhere is a massive risk to me and my industry.

As soon as they get a foothold, they will implement rules that force me and others to join. It is safer to just stop them in their tracks before they can get even close to taking over.

What exactly is "my attitude" please?

And good on you, others will either agree or disagree with you. But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join? And with whom would you...organize to stop union efforts?

The attitude of social contracts and not caring about people's free choice to not join unions. And thinking "oh, don't like unions, tough luck, go find another job or move to another country".

> But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join?

But they ARE allowed to force me to join, under threat of being fired, in some states. So that's why.

If the US had universal right to work laws, where you could not be fired for refusing to join a union, then I wouldnt care and wouldn't bother organizing against unions.

The attitude of "screw you for standing up for your right to not join an organization" is very common among union supporters, which is the reason why I oppose them.

I organize against unions already, by supporting right to work laws, and supporting politicians who do as well, and donating to these efforts.

There are a ton of existing efforts to protect worker's rights of voluntary association, and their right to not join organizations that they don't support.

So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize? For fear of something which does not happen because there is already a law against it?

http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join...

>You are protected by law in all 50 states from being fired from your job for not joining a union. You can be only liable for no more than the requirement to pay either union dues or a reduced amount to work in an agency shop. If you refuse to join the union and refuse to pay the required dues, then you can be fired.

> So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize

Yes. They want to do it to me, so why wouldn't I do it to them? That just puts me at a disadvantage for following rules that my opponents refuse to follow.

But "taking away their right to organize" is a bit of a stretch.

They should be able to "organize", in the colloquial sense of lobbying, talking to other people, expressing their opinion, and negotiating in groups, all they want in support of their cause.

Freedom of association, as defined in the first amendment of US Constitution, applies to them too.

And in turn, I will "organize" AGAINST their cause, as is also MY right.

Disagreeing with someone, and organizing against them, is not the same as taking away THEIR right to "organize".

And yes, you can be fired, if you refuse to pay the union required fee. That's the same thing as being forced to join. Go get your money from people who chose, of their own free will, to join.

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