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Comment by nocoder | Hacker News Reader

I have seen these in bangalore, in fact there is one very close to my office. One of the things that concerns me with such projects is that how they effect other eateries in the area. The one near my office that opened recently is on a street with about 5 other eateries. Having a eatery which is subsidized by government distorts this local market and adversely affects the other businesses in the area since they also cater to similar demographic with largely similar products. So while on its own this might be a good initiative, the economic impact of such initiatives might be more harmful to the local area economy. It s like creating more homeless so you can built shelter homes. A better way to do the same thing might be just to issue food vouchers which the people can use to by the food of their choice from any of the other eateries. It provides affordable food to those who cannot afford and also supports the smaller businesses.

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That would really depend on what the target demographic was of those neighboring eateries, wouldn't it?

I'll use an American analogy to illustrate, and so I'm sorry in advance if it doesn't translate well.

In the Washington D.C. area (where I have several friends working), the restaurants are overwhelmingly high-end. A meal at a standard Panera bread is one of the more affordable options, and costs you somewhere between $12-15. Assuming said person works minimum wage, they're making $12.50/hr. In the longterm, that's really not sustainable, as they're spending an hour of their work-time just to be able to eat during the workday.

Suppose a Subway opens next door, and, additionally, suppose their $5 footlong still existed (it doesn't, but stay with me). The people who previously went to Panera start going to Subway because it's more affordable. Yeah, the Panera suffers, but many of the people that ate there couldn't really afford to eat there in the first place, and would have eventually stopped when their dwindling finances made it impossible.

Now on the other hand, if Subway was our base price and a government-subsidized eatery opens up with complete meals for $2, then yes, I can see how that might be a problem.

Without judging people's situations, I have to wonder at why people earning minimum wage would be eating out at Panera vs bringing lunch from home for much less money.

Most people are migrant laborers, they don't have families in the city or home.

What does that have to do the above reply?

There's a growing mobile homeless or partially homeless (living in storage facilities or an RV without services) population in many of the more expensive cities; they live in the city for work, because that's where the jobs are, but can't actually afford to live there. Obviously, this isn't everyone who eats out who can't really afford it, but it's definitely some. If you don't have a fridge, you don't have a stove, and you have no way to keep or prepare fresh foods, you have to eat out more often. I've known lots of folks in this situation (I live in an RV and travel a lot and run into all sorts of people). They often do keep bread and peanut butter in their car or RV or whatever, but they have pretty limited options. It's not healthy or sustainable to eat that way. So, they end up eating out a lot.

Our cities are becoming wholly inhospitable to poor people, and food is no exception. And, someone making $12.50/hour probably can't really afford rent in a city like DC, either.

Thank you for educating me on that aspect of the situation.

Is there typically electricity in these situations? I ask because per my post below, I wonder how common it is to bootstrap up to a mini-fridge + pressure cooker or rice cooker or something like that. Seems like a few weeks of PB&J + cup ramen could provide for a significant upgrade in nutrition from purchasing those tools.

I'm probably leaving out some important aspect of this, and unfortunately some of this might simply be around education of where to purchase these tools and what to do with them to eat smarter, but I can't help but think there are ways to improve the situation with the cards they currently have in their hand.

If I found myself suddenly living out of a car or storage unit (provided it had electricity), I'd probably do whatever I could to save for a mini-fridge and rice cooker (eventually upgrading to a pressure cooker), and go from there. Rice and beans purchased in bulk are affordable and solid staples, and easy to turn into more nutritious meals by adding other ingredients.

It's wildly variable what resources someone in that kind of situation might have.

There was a guy living in the storage unit next to the one I have in Austin (for my stuff from when I moved out of a house and back into an RV). The folks who ran the storage facility let him run an extension cord to the nearest power; several people actually were living in that facility, despite it being illegal. So, in his case he did have electricity, and I believe he had a mini-fridge. We talked several times and he seemed to have a pretty reasonable setup. He even had a space heater for when it got cold. I never saw the inside of his house (he'd built a wall and second regular door behind the rolling garage style door), but he seemed to be reasonably comfortable and had regular work really close by (since he only had a bike, proximity was important). The last time I was there, he'd moved out, and the person working didn't know where he'd gone; I'm hoping he was doing well and got an apartment rather than ran into harder times.

Similarly, I've seen people use one of these to get electricity inside a storage unit when they didn't have particularly understanding landlords: http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/04/31/80/63/0004318063152_...

But, people in cars or vans probably don't have power. Some RVers have solar panels, and also RV fridges often also run on propane (though they aren't terribly efficient in the old RVs...I go through about $15/week running mine on propane). Propane fridges are very expensive and very fidgety and prone to breakage over time, however, so it's not uncommon to see the propane/electric dual-mode fridge replaced with an electric-only model in the cheapest old RVs. So, that limits the use of the fridge to times when it's plugged in.

I know someone who lives in a bus that she converted to an RV herself, but she didn't put in a fridge (yet), so while she has a stove, if she's not parked near a grocery, she is very limited in what she can cook. Some things keep well without refrigeration: onions, potatoes, winter squash, etc. She has potted plants for tomatoes and herbs, but she's much more intentional about her situation. She moved out of an apartment and into the bus by choice, not by necessity, and mostly enjoys the off-the-grid lifestyle. She made one of these for when she's in the desert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-in-pot_refrigerator but those only work in very dry climates and aren't cold enough for many foods. Obviously wouldn't work in most places...and if you're in a city, you have to be self-contained and very discreet about where you're living. Can't really spread out and put out pots and stuff when parked on a street.

What is close to work by in the US anyway? Looking at the commute distance of people in the US it seems that at least 50% live close enough to use a bicycle. I've seen countless articles about poor people in the US who can't afford a car and had to walk 2 hours every morning, that is most probably 30 minutes on a shitty bicycle even less on a decent one.

        American Commute 
        Distance (One Way)    Percent
        1-5 Miles             29 %
        6-10 Miles            22 %
        11-15 Miles           17 %
        16-20 Miles           10 %
        21+ Miles             23 %
        (source:  US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, Omnibus Household Survey. )

So, rent in the DC area starts at about $1400/mth. Period. If you're okay living with three roommates, you might be able to eke out something livable at $700 a month. But then you're sharing a house with people you don't know, and young women might be especially uncomfortable with that.

Your other option is to live in someone's guest room or basement for $600. The people who rent out these rooms usually expect to be renting to college students, and so there is often very little by way of accommodations: the room may be 10x10" and include little more than a bed and a desk. The family will also make it very clear that the tenant is not allowed to use the kitchen, making cooking impossible. So the tenant is pushed to live meal-to-meal, as it were, with little expectation of being able to store or prepare food long-term.

Do they have electricity? A mini-fridge runs <$70 (probably less second-hand). That's a little more than a week's worth of Panera. Pretty easy to do with dry goods and cup ramen that only requires hot water to heat up. Pressure cookers are even cheaper. Rice cookers can be had for <$25.

So while I recognize that not everyone in that situation may be resourceful enough to realize this and do something about it, the notion that cooking becomes impossible is not accurate.

The education for where to purchase these things cheaply and how to cook in restricted situations with them is admittedly still a problem though, and it seems like a lot of good could be done to solve it. Getting your nutrition bootstrapped up on a path that lets you save more money seems like a worthwhile goal.

May be it is US thing or generally everywhere but I notice nowadays people think cooking either has to be elaborate/expensive or with such low efforts that one would not even like the meal they prepared for themselves. Hence eating out is so common even with less money.

For me since I always carry from home for lunch and eat dinner at home, so cooking needs to be in all categories like low/medium/elaborate efforts. And of course tasty enough that myself or anyone joining me reasonably like it.

I think you're overlooking the "true" amount of space required to cook and store food. It's not just the fridge and the rice cooker you've got to think about. It's everything else that you take for granted in your kitchen: storage space, bowls, utensils, a heating mechanism, a reheating mechanism, spices, etc.

So I'm in my 10x10 room (no kitchen access because my landlords are a conservative family that just wants spare-room money, remember), I've managed to fit a mini-fridge in some corner next to my desk, and a rice cooker that sits on top of it. Let's make rice! Firstly, where am I storing the uncooked rice? Do I buy a 5-lb bag of rice for $10 that could feed me for a month? Probably not, because I don't have the storage space. So I spend a dollar and buy the smallest bag I can find, which makes just over 2 cups of rice. In the long term it's way more expensive, but it saves space, because I'll just cook all 2 cups now and have nothing you need to worry about storing.

Rice is not terribly filling or healthy on its own. Maybe we'll jazz it up and throw a tomato into the middle of the rice cooker to make tomato rice. This kinda-sorta borders on a meal. So our rice is done. How do I eat this? I guess I'll buy a single bowl and some chopsticks. Or, screw that, I'll buy a single bowl and snatch some extra plastic cutlery from the Popeye's across the street.

I've finished eating. Even as a meager meal (not super filling, and I've got nothing other than plastic salt-and-pepper shakers that I bought from Wal-Mart as seasoning), I can't eat more than a cup or so of rice. So I've got leftovers. What am I storing these leftovers in? I don't have room to buy some pyrex containers. Maybe I can just cover the inner bowl of the rice cooker with some plastic wrap! Balls, now I need plastic wrap...

Day 2, I should eat some of my tomato rice leftovers. How am I going to reheat this? I could probably reheat it with boiling water, but I'd need to buy an electric kettle or, at the very least, a hot-shot. Maybe if I buy a drink at the nearby 7-11, they'll let me use their microwave? Man, that's a nuisance. I might as well just get some wings at 7-11 if I'm going over there anyway...

There's a pretty large demographic of people making minimum wage or low wages.

Some people just aren't responsible with money, they don't budget, they don't live within their means, they don't really think or care to look at the expenses or how they add up.

If you did a Venn diagram of low wage earners and people who aren't really responsible with their money, those are the people eating at Panera Bread, or buying things from Rent-A-Center or taking out high interest loans and engaging in every sort of behavior that compounds the problems with making low wages.

No. To make food you need resources, the less you have the more it costs per meal. Panera bread might be the only alternative you have to be able to function in the work place.

Maybe there is a Veblen goods kind of situation going on here. If I made enough money to eat out every day for lunch, would I want to go spend my lunch at what is essentially a soup kitchen or would I want a venue that is nicer? India still has a caste system so I would imagine the higher caste people would not want to be going to a restaurant where a large portion of the customers would be poorer, lower caste.

> Having a eatery which is subsidized by government distorts this local market and adversely affects the other businesses in the area since they also cater to similar demographic with largely similar products.

Same in the U.S. about McDonald's, fast food, and other junk food sellers whose product is based on corn, soy, beef, and other recipients of billions of dollars of subsidy and unaccounted externalities.

I have seen the crowd at indira canteens and they are not the clientele of the near by eateries.I think this is a much better way than food coupons to be used at private restaurants , which is ripe for correction in a country like india.

I agree, but they may not have that luxury. If they offered food vouchers I am not sure they could achieve the economies of scale that seem to facilitate these types of things. Ie. 13 cents would not buy the same amount of food at a regular shop than a 13 cent food voucher to be used at a mass canteen.

I remember my time in Shenzhen back in 2007 (or in 2009 if my memory fails me) when I was transiting through the city to Singapore.

Back then, I was surprised how much even seemingly low income people were dishing out on food.

When line 9 was just opened, there was no underground connection in between it and line 4 in Shangmeilin. Food cart owners who set up shops on the sandlot in between stations, were allegedly having turnovers closing on 5k usd per day in first months after opening given how many commuters going to and from factories were passing by that place.

Food there was rather basic, but quite expensive. 30CNY for a big bowl of beef noodle soup, more than double than what you expected for street food back then, yet I have not seen a single time when there was no lineup.

May be.

Even in a country as poor as India, food is not a double percentage of income spending even for a moderately well off person.

It is better to have underemployed, and socially marginalized people fed well and healthy, than to deal with consequences of them not having access to proper nutrition.

unless those eateries are super-basic, it doesn't sound like this is competition for them. The canteens offer one meal of two items for a fixed price. Anyone with more means will surely choose a more varied menu and better service / ambiance, wouldn't they? (at least most of the time; I would totally go there for a lunch or quick breakfast from time to time.)

> One of the things that concerns me with such projects is that how they effect other eateries in the area.

Probably less than you might imagine, for more than one reason.

First, it adds another attractor to the area, and while some people will only get the cheapest food others will at least occasionally have a desire for and money for something different or fancier. Those decisions may very well not be made until the person or group is already in that area. This is why many restaurants are often found in clusters.

Second, for some of the nicer options this may mean a shift from people getting everything as cheap as possible (but still more than the cost now) to people being able to save money on 1-2 meals a day and getting something nicer for another at one of those commercial entities.

Finally, while some places that would be most directly in competition might fail other businesses will surely move in to capture the business of the crowds of people who now have a little more money available to spend.

Doesn't this also open up the opportunity to value add? If the food is bland they can sell sauce packets to spice it up, sides, drinks, etc. The money they saved on food could be money they now have to spend on other things.

It's a good point about local businesses but I wonder why a big provider of cheap food like this doesn't happen without government help? Also, why not cash instead of food vouchers?

To control the issuing of food vouchers would add overhead to the system and probably need to be means tested.

uncle, kitni baar khana khate ho Indira canteen main ?

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