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Comment by leggomylibro | Hacker News Reader

You know, it's nice to be someone benefiting from all the growth and stuff in that I guess I can complain in comfort, but...

I fucking hate it here. The wealth disparity is palpable, and people understandably resent it. Nobody treats you like a human being if you're in tech. They treat you like a wallet; how do you think it feels to never be smiled at or even acknowledged unless you're about to pay for something? Ever been a pariah? It's awful, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

At least you'll make enough money in a few years - not having any people-y things to spend it on - to move somewhere else and really try to contribute to something. Seattle resents contribution.

If you're reading this and considering a move out here, I swear I'm not doing some kind of NIMBY thing, this is straight from the slowly-but-surely-broken heart - please, spend a week or two here first and think very hard before making the decision.

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> I fucking hate it here. The wealth disparity is palpable, and people understandably resent it.

Then go find somewhere where you don't hate it.

> At least you'll make enough money in a few years - not having any people-y things to spend it on - to move somewhere else and really try to contribute to something. Seattle resents contribution.

Please provide some examples of "Seattle resents contribution".

I can see why people wouldn't like you though: you're apparently a rentier who has no interest in contributing back to the place that you're benefiting from.

> Nobody treats you like a human being if you're in tech.

Have you ever been working class? Worked retail, food service? It ain't great, I'll take working in tech in terms of "being treated like a human."

Yes! To all of those!

I am going to move, once my leases are up. I've had it.

I've been trying to give back by trying to find ways to teach and get people interested in electronics - I really fervently believe that anyone can do it - but the furthest I get from indifference is hostility that I'd presume what I should be teaching. I want to give, but nobody wants to take...

And of course I've worked shit jobs and been treated like shit. But at least I was getting paid for it then.

> I've been trying to give back by trying to find ways to teach and get people interested in electronics

I feel like using tech as a means to connect with people who dislike all the tech being brought into Seattle may not be the best way to go.

When i go out with friends (and friends of friends) here in Seattle, the topics always drift to tech and work because that's the common ground for everyone. It's kind of annoying to me and it's something i'm passionate about. I can imagine why people would be somewhat hostile if they don't enjoy tech and that's all that half the people they meet want to talk about.

Yeah but it's not like, work electronics. It's like, robots and lights and fun stuff like that electronics.

Doesn't matter; nobody cares. I thought I'd meet, you know, artists who might be interested in making creative things with stuff like that. Or someone, anyone, who'd have a reaction besides vague unease. I dunno, maybe it's just me. I can sort of understand why they wouldn't, but I wish people would just say if I were bothering them...it's fucked up but sometimes, I really wish I was more marginalized.

Whoa! You seem like a very enthusiastic person interested in sharing your knowledge and expertise, and watching said knowledge blossom, manifested in new ideas. That's pretty neat!

Have you tried looking for any meetups that draw people of a similar mindset? Microsoft has a "Maker Garage" which may have some openings to get 'tinkerers' in to teach to youngsters. What about schools? Have you tried asking if you can present to a class or two about Electronics as a future career path?

What about electronics do you like? What is your "formal education" (not that it matters, but I'm curious as to where you found your love for electronics).

Not trying to bend you away, but I'm frankly shocked by your position. Are you locked in Amazonville?

Did you reach out to places like http://sodomakerspace.com to try and teach?

There are also places to work that are all about contribution - Vulcan Inc. (where I work now) has a really strong philanthropy bent.

That's an unfortunate domain name if I've ever seen one.

Sodo is where I learned that I was universally hated, despised, and should never speak unless spoken to.

I spent years trying, buddy, and y'know what? I just can't anymore. I've learned what happens.

Ah, rough. Sorry man. =/ I'd recommend a smaller town - have you looked at Pittsburgh?

So did you go to a community college and offer to teach classes? Honestly, that sounds like a really fulfilling way to spend your time, I really doubt that you couldn't find somewhere that would let you teach something if you tried... even if it's just a community center.

EDIT: Also, if you want to connect with non techies... maybe do something else... it's unreasonable to expect to only be surrounded by techies at all times?

I don't have time. I want to teach electronics and stuff because I want to help people who are marginalized to have the opportunities that frankly, I didn't deserve but I wish everyone had. But I also have a lot to learn first, and I'm not going to do that if I spend all my time like I did my first couple of years here, doing forced social things with people who will never want to see me again.

I mean...it's painful, but I already tried the 'something else' thing for awhile and it only hurt more. That's where I got this whole 'everyone hates me on the off chance that they deign to notice me' thing. Maybe at least trying to do something productive and useful will pay off someday, if I can figure more stuff out and come up with a succinct way to get people interested. And who knows how much longer we'll have access to this wonderland of cheap components that an unfair globalized market provides? I don't have time.

> I don't have time. I want to teach electronics and stuff because I want to help people who are marginalized to have the opportunities that frankly, I didn't deserve but I wish everyone had. But I also have a lot to learn first, and I'm not going to do that if I spend all my time like I did my first couple of years here, doing forced social things with people who will never want to see me again.

No point teaching people who don't want to learn. Plus, it comes off as stuck up to tell people what should be important to them.

It's great that you have a passion for electronics! I'm surprised you aren't able to find a meetup or something with others who share that interest.. Maybe you could visit the local colleges to see if they have clubs or classes and join in?

> I mean...it's painful, but I already tried the 'something else' thing for awhile and it only hurt more.

What did you try? It is possible you could try something else that you like more?

You probably already know about it, but if not check out Metrix. It’s a little non-profit that offers electronics/maker workshops. Might be something for you to get involved in.

That's sad to hear - I left San Francisco for many of the same reasons. Watching wanton excess and extreme poverty side by side (both in severity and in sheer scale) was soul-crushing.

Being constantly regarded as the boogeyman (in many ways, entirely warranted) got old after a while also. Given Seattle's prodigious growth rate it's sad to see this view has migrated.

I lived in Seattle years ago and experienced some of what you're describing, though from your description it seems things have gotten much worse.

There's always been kvetching about transplants ruining Seattle, but you could still largely get by without feeling particularly targeted. The "Seattle Freeze" is real though, and as a transplant looking for roots after college, the prototypical Northwest social norms felt isolating.

It's a lovely place, there are lots of reasons I keep thinking about moving back - but there are still even more reasons why I haven't done it yet.

> the prototypical Northwest social norms felt isolating

I dunno, I've heard this, but having lived in the Bay Area, NYC, and the Northwest (Portland, specifically), and not being a native of any, I found the Northwest to be by far the most welcoming. There was a strong sense of community in the neighborhood (people would get together for dinners and stuff), everyone was super chill, you could get to know the regulars at coffee shops, etc. California in general seems way more cliquish.

I felt much the same in California - but in NYC I've been able to find communities to participate in, and this is still the place where I feel most at home.

I think part of it has to do with just how many people here are transplants - whereas in Seattle it seemed like (at least for a 20-something recent grad living on Capitol Hill circa 2009) there was a firm social division between transplants and locals. This may have changed in the years since, considering how many more transplants there are now.

There were a few transplant circles I ran in (including a hacker space I liked a lot), but most of them being tech-centric it felt restrictive. I'd be very happy to learn if the situation has changed.

I felt similarly about San Francisco - the circles that seemed accepting of transplants (worse, techie transplants) tended to be tech-heavy, and it became impossible to "get away" from tech even during my off hours. More diverse interests tended to look at us warily - though I don't really begrudge them, there are a lot of good reasons.

Nobody treats you like a human being if you're in tech. They treat you like a wallet

Weird, I never have this experience. Where do you live? Where do you hang out?

Also, I can tell you from personal experience that people will treat you like a hero[1] if you tell them that you work on OneBusAway, so please help out on one of these all-volunteer projects:

iOS: https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-iphone

Android: https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android

[1] Unless they're Route 8 commuters.

I love one bus away, thanks :)

Another big thanks for OneBusAway! I'm in tech though, so that may not count.

Yep. OneBusAway rocks!

It is a tough place to move. Especially as a tech person.

People there think that the explosion of tech money and tech people from outside is ruining their city and their culture. They are right. By default, as a tech immigrant (or even tech person, really) you are seen as an invading enemy. So if you move there realize that's a terrible reality you are going to have to deal with.

They think that you, as a new arrival and a tech person, are part of the problem. They might be right. You have to try hard to assimilate, and accept that you're moving to a place with an already pre-existing strong culture that is wary of outsiders (Seattle is one of those places where people ask adults where they went to high school). People in Seattle are not particularly warm and welcoming. You have try hard to dig yourself in there. You have to try hard to make friends. If you make music or art or do outdoor stuff, that's great, do that, talk about that. If you just write code, well, you and a couple million others.

Honestly, if Amazon had set up its offices in a quiet suburb outside the city, like Boeing or Microsoft did, this wouldn't be happening. It's Bezos' fault for not understanding or caring about his own city, really.

Seattle has always been insular. My wife was once interviewing at a Seattle law firm. Her resume reflects jobs in Eugene, OR (where she's from) and Wenatchee, WA (where she worked as a teacher). The partner interviewing her looks up from her resume and asks: "Well, I see you have ties to eastern Washington, but what's your connection to western Washington?"

Pretty sure that specific place wouldn't have care how eastern she had been, if she had had 'Harvard' written somewhere. They most likely had someone else in mind and were just wasting your wife's time.

Sure, you can overcome insularity with credentials, but that doesn't mean that insularity doesn't exist. This particular firm has twice as many Seattle U. grads as Harvard grads, so clearly being a local carries substantial weight.

> This particular firm has twice as many Seattle U. grads as Harvard grads, so clearly being a local carries substantial weight.

You can't come to that conclusion unless they have an equal number of Seattle U applicants as Harvard applicants AND that they are somehow measured as being equally qualified.

A company located in Seattle having more graduates from a Seattle schools than outside schools seems pretty normal? I think you could replace Seattle with practically any city with a decent university and it would still be true except maybe super prestigious companies who only hire from top N colleges.

> A company located in Seattle having more graduates from a Seattle schools than outside schools seems pretty normal?

Law firms are extremely pedigree conscious. For comparison, a top LA firm has five times as many Harvard graduates as from the local non top tier school.

That is really strange. My last name gets me noticed all the time in those circles because of a rich relative who lives in Eastern Washington. It doesn’t hurt me at all, though I’m thoroughly connected in both.

Have you found yourself hiding that you work in tech? Do you ever lie about what field you work in so that people won't be hostile to you? If so, what do you say you do? I'm really curious about this because usually people lie to make themselves look richer, so it would be interesting to get the opposite perspective.

I don't. Why bother? I've seen sitcoms, a few months out and I'd be taking odd bus routes or wearing sunglasses and a hat around the office or some crazy shit like that.

Pretty sure most of the lower paid folks in Seattle dislike how their rent doubled because these tech folks throw money at rentals close to downtown.

And...what, do you think people are more likely to feel empathy when they're treated like subhuman dirt? (Or something slightly less hyperbolic, whatever)

Kind of an ironic complaint, isn't it?

Please provide some examples of being treated like subhuman dirt, I'm waiting. You make Seattle sound like they're pelting techies in the streets with rotten fruit. I have no idea what you're talking about, having lived and worked in Seattle.

Nobody will talk with me.

So I've just stopped speaking unless spoken to...this is the first place where I've felt like my mere existence is an imposition.

I understand that plenty of other people deal with that every day but...it still hurts.

What are you talking about? I've been a techie transplant in Seattle for years and while some folks understandably resent the trend, none have treated me or any other individual poorly because of it. If anything, they're likely to ask about my experience and how I think we could alleviate the issues (more housing inventory, imo).

I think you're very unlucky or hypersensitive to things that don't actually exist.

Do you walk around with a sign on your forehead announcing to the world that you're a techie? I would suspect not.

On what grounds do you believe that to be the basis for people not speaking with you?

>>Nobody will talk with me.

Strongly consider that this is not a problem in tech, but an individual one. I put in years at Microsoft, Amazon, and the dreaded startup row in Pioneer Square. I have a diverse group of friends from tech to retail, I watch football weekly with random people, have no problems striking up conversations at bars, etc.

Most of the complaints I hear like yours are eminently traceable to individual personalities that are overrepresented in tech, not people in general.

> Nobody will talk with me. > understand that plenty of other people deal with that every day but...

Have you tried volunteering? It might make you feel a little bit less lonely, and a little more wanted for helping other people.

You sound like you're experiencing some isolating emotions for the first time... living in the big city can be isolating and alienating for everyone. Not just techies.

You're not a pariah... it's just Seattle.

Have you tried volunteering?

Just a confirmation for this. As just one example, I spend a lot of time volunteering at an animal shelter. Makes me wished I'd volunteered as a younger man, as there are some hot chix there, and we obviously all like dogs. :-) Piggishness aside, I meet all kinds of people there and take my pick of relationships had I more time. Even if I don't speak to another person, I get to hang out with a variety of dogs while I'm there, and if no human thanks me the dogs sure do seem to appreciate it.

Or Meetups for your chosen hobby. As yet another example, I play bluegrass music. Not in a band, just "jamming" with other people. I could play bluegrass music with other people at least three days a week if I wanted to (and sometimes do), probably more if I'd drive just a bit further. In addition to meeting other people at the jams, and bluegrassers will talk to you as long as you can stand it, that leads to going to bluegrass festivals, where you spend an entire weekend playing with other people after the bands get off stage.

Just some ideas. Because I do think a valid "complaint" of Seattle in general is that you're always welcome, but we're not going to explicitly invite you.

> Nobody will talk with me.

They're not singling you out. Seattle people don't talk to random strangers on the street or transit unless there's an actual reason. This aspect of the city is well known: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze.

The good news is that it's not personal. The bad news is that it's still difficult to get to know people.

There are some exceptions to the rule. If you're a coffee drinker, you can definitely talk to your barista (about half of them are really friendly in my experience), and if you have a dog, you can talk to other people who have dogs (you might think I'm joking, but I am not).

Your best bet for human interaction is to join some sort of formal group. I still have a group of friends I made through Seattle Works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Works) a decade ago.

> They're not singling you out. Seattle people don't talk to random strangers on the street or transit unless there's an actual reason. This aspect of the city is well known: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze.

Is this unique to Seattle? I don't think I've lived anywhere (lived in both north and south CA previously) where people just talked to random people.

I feel like that's just one part of being in a big place? No point saying hi to every single person because there's way too many people and you're unlikely to see most of them ever again.

This is completely normal to any city that has a lot of transplants. At 24 years old, showing up to a city and expecting to become inner-circle friends with people who came up through high school is not reasonable, and people give up "making friends" fast.

Source: I moved to Seattle at 22 and have more friends here than I ever had in my previous life.

Nobody will talk with me.

I mean this in the most constructive manner I can muster: consider that you contribute to this in some way. To put it more bluntly, maybe it's you. Because I've lived here for seventeen years, having moved from the Midwest, which was a hell of an adjustment. Because I'll agree that Seattlites are generally not as outgoing. For example, you move into a neighborhood in the Midwest and you'll be eating casserole for a week as the neighbors one by one drop them off. In Seattle, meh, it'd be nice if the neighbors acknowledged that I'm new to the neighborhood. But to just not talk to you? Really? An entire geographical location comprised of people that won't talk to others? C'mon, how likely is that? Hell, most people around here these days aren't even from Washington, so they're just fast learners of local culture?

Now I'm a bit of an introvert, so I'm not all that outgoing to begin with, but I have no trouble getting people to talk to me. Not as "chew your ear off" as Midwesterners can be, but they'll talk. If I had anything to complain about with West Coast living in general is folks can be a bit self-absorbed compared to what I'm used to. So they'll talk; oh, how they'll talk, but it'll be about themselves. But at least they're talking to you. :-) So ask people how that Paleo diet is going, or how Crossfit workouts are treating them. My experience says that you'll beg them to shut up.

But all of this is one huge, monstrous generalization because you can't just dump 700K people into one pigeon hole and call it a day.

Thanks - I appreciate the benefit of your experience and it's always nice to have people slap you with some perspective...you might be surprised how often that doesn't happen, when you don't talk to people much.

you might be surprised how often that doesn't happen, when you don't talk to people much

The irony is not lost on me. :-) Best wishes to you for where ever you end up.

Yeah honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't part of why I whine and complain like this online. I feel like it's probably unhealthy (you know, relatively or whatever) to lose that reminder that you're just another asshole who can't quite make things work right, just like everyone else. I feel like most people get it from talking and discussing and arguing about intetesting things, but when all you can afford is grits...

As a fellow sufferer of this years ago (we've been over this before here on HN) I'm happy to reach out and strategize. My email is my HN handle at gmail

This is fascinating to me. Don't move to Europe, you might feel like we are going to murder you in some dark corner. When I was in Seattle I was fascinated with how outcoming these people were and then I read this - wow. Interesting perspective.

> Nobody will talk with me.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like you've gone through a lot.

I am also a recent transplant in Seattle. If you ever need someone to talk to, we can meet up over coffee or something. You can reach me at chohyu01@uw.edu.

As a techie (who does wear his status on his forehead... Or at least, on company-branded clothing, which is 60% of what I wear,) I have never been treated like subhuman dirt in Seattle.

I have, however, seen quite a few homeless people, bus drivers, and food workers treated like subhuman dirt.

I'm not saying you haven't ran into problems, what I'm saying is that between being a techie, and not, the former has way less of them.

Local landlords are the ones increasing the rent, not the people that pay for it.

They're increasing the rent because people are willing and able to pay. It's a complex relationship.

People are overpaying for housing (cash offers 20% over asking), and turning them into expensive rentals (mostly Airbnb) to pay for the extra cost. In that sense, people are absolutely setting their own ceiling on cost of housing.

Also, in order to cope with rising costs from new residents, property taxes have risen 35% in the last 4 years [0]. Part of the rent increases are just to cover the property tax. These taxes are voted in by the people.

(Source: I have friends who have purchased homes here, others who work in real estate, and I do tech things for property management companies.)

[0]: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/property-t...

> People are overpaying for housing (cash offers 20% over asking)

All the rentals I looked at had fixed prices and they weren't interested in extra cash. That's also assuming you're renting from an individual and not a company. The massive apartments that are being built have fixed, though rising yearly, costs.

> property taxes have risen 35%

That increase isn't automatic and certainly isn't locked in step to the number of people moving in. Its a decision by the county.

My point is that to blame people trying to find a place to stay is ridiculous. The increase in pricing is a choice made by landlords, and is influenced by a choice made by the county.

Renter demand is insane right now, and they have the cash to back it up. I know of people renting a second place to stay, closer to work, because traffic has become so bad. I know that people are snapping up rentals as soon as they come on the market, even if that means supporting 2 leases for the rest of the month just to get what they want. Rent prices never have a chance or reason to drop.

The county's choices are a reflection of its citizens. City council has recently passed several new ordinances to make housing more 'fair', unfortunately this also has caused a significant increase in compliance cost for property managers.

My personal opinion is that zoning should be relaxed in several areas. Nevertheless Seattle price/sqft is in the range of other major US cities and still has room to rise:

https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/apartment-search-2/what-does-1...

Rental markets in Bellevue are a bit weak ATM, lots of new supply so they are offering incentives. Still more expensive than a few years ago, but we might be seeing a leak in demand-supply mismatches...on the east side at least.

Zoning is terrible. And height restrictions are a serious problem. The Space Needle and the Boeing airport nearby are seriously constraining building in the area. There was a massive downtown apartment tower that was (maybe still is?) going to be built that was running into big problems because it might be too tall for the airport. And in surrounding areas, the locals don't want their views spoiled so forget anything more than 3 or 4 stories. I lived in West Seattle, which had as many apartments as it could handle being built, but none above 3 or 4 stories. Its like people think that holding onto these utopic view of how Seattle should never change is somehow going to solve everything. The only way these issues will be fixed is through compromise and hard work. As it stands, I don't know how Seattle can hit a million people and still work properly.

I moved from san francisco to seattle about 2 years ago.

It was already well on the way, but I'd say that in that time, we've gotten about 85-90% through becoming san francsico. It's not 100 because the poop and transit situations are really great here, relative to SF.

I would agree that if you're moving to seattle to escape the ails of the bay area, you're buying yourself, at most, 18 months. You've gotta go somewhere earlier stage to get a meaningfully different experience.

Also of note: the tech animosity is definitely of a different flavor here. "Amazon" is the entire tech industry, and if you're remotely affiliated with them, people outside of tech will blatantly, intentionally disassociate with you. When learning I don't work for amazon, people start confiding in me all kinds of really insane, overblown feelings about their mental image of the tech elite. Strangely, I've had a person at a bar shit talk amazon and their impact on the city about 90 seconds before revealing that he was... a lawyer? That surprised me, since they were the original rich guys everyone loved to hate. It's not just tied to wealth - seattle is really pissed about what they feel is cultural erosion.

Amazon has built a theme park that looks like Seattle inside of Seattle. Microsoft brought gentrification, but Amazon is clearly driving a totally different level of separation.

> Nobody treats you like a human being if you're in tech.

That sounds depressing.. I've lived in Seattle for ~3 years now and can't say I really relate.

Where did you move from and where are you now?

Although I'm curious why your situation is so different from mine and others, I hope you can find a way out of it soon, whether it be by moving or finding others who you feel you can converse with.

"Contribution" is pretty subjective. Seattle has historically had quite a bit of industry and R&D that employed lots of regular people, but the current software bubble is now crowding it out of the city, while also inflating property values thanks to VC cash. And that's not even getting into the hipsterification culture shift.

I mean contributing like art and culture and teaching; not everyone who comes here for a job has that at the core of their being, despite the way we're treated.

Seattle's culture has been absolutely ruined by the huge influx of bay area types. Colonizing us and making Seattle more like SF is not a contribution. There was a time in recent memory when the city didn't cater to flamboyant hipsters.

Ladies and gentlemen, the typical reaction you can expect when saying 'hi' to someone. Thanks for the succinct example.

I won't bother saying I'm not who you think I am; it never helps.

You think this is what qualifies for being treated like subhuman dirt?

Buddy...

Heh.

OP, try to read some history or learn about how some of the more unfortunate people are living right now. Don't focus on the US -- which is in and of itself an anomaly -- but open your eyes to the whole world.

You'll quickly realize how fortunate you truly are.

I get where you are coming from completely. I left in 8 months. Never looked back. That city is terrible. Much happier now.

A lot of that also applies to the Bay Area - or at least San Francisco - experience. The difference is that if you choose to self-segregate and only associate yourself with other tech folk, you can do that easily as the community is huge. But that's not a great way to live in a city.

I wonder how our Austin counterparts compare.

> Nobody treats you like a human being if you're in tech. They treat you like a wallet; how do you think it feels to never be smiled at or even acknowledged unless you're about to pay for something?

How does that even work? Do you have a tattoo on your forehead that says "I work in tech"?

We moved from San Francisco, it's much worse there. Also, i feel it'll take a few years but Seattle will calm down as more and more tech workers integrate and make this THEIR city.

Seattle is a great place, even for people in tech. I've always been Treated like a human being. I think you got out of it what you put into it.

OK. When did you move to Seattle? Where did you move from?

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