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Comment by KKKKkkkk1 | Hacker News Reader

> "In fairness, if someone is a jerk to you, but sincerely apologizes, it is important to be thick-skinned and accept that apology."

I have a colleague who has "sincerely apologized" to me three times within the span of a few months. Some people just know how to play the system, and if management is not firm (which this passage indicates is the case in Tesla), these people will win out.

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Then I guess that person isn't sincerely apologizing.

Yes obviously--the question is what will management do about it.

Why isn't it sincere? Do you mean that if they were sincere, they'd stop the behavior?

Unfortunately, I think human behavior and relations are far more difficult than that. To a significant degree behavior isn't subject to will, though we like to assume it is. Everyone I know makes the same mistakes over and over (different mistakes for different people); they would sincerely like to stop. IME, to survive in relationships we have no choice but to accept those things in ourselves and in others.

Of course, that makes accountability very complicated, but I think it's a fact of life.

My mother told me that "sorry" means "I won't do it again.". Maybe that's not exactly right, or standard, but I think it's pretty close.

"Sorry I stepped on your toes.". That was probably an accident.

"Sorry I did it again. And again." This is probably not an accident.

Great example. It's hard to know what are the exact intentions when someone speaks, but it's easy to judge by its actions.

> Do you mean that if they were sincere, they'd stop the behavior?

Yes

> Why isn't it sincere? Do you mean that if they were sincere, they'd stop the behavior?

Not trying to excuse any behaviour or anything, but it's indeed quite fathomable that even with all the best intent in the world you can't change your behaviour overnight, forever, with a perfect track record.

If it's a one time thing, then sure, accept the apology. But if that person is known to be a jerk often, and apologizes often albeit sincerely, I can't expect anyone to be that thick skinned, nor would I advocate for that

It's not even about being thick skinned: it might not bother me at a personal level, but I'm not letting a team malfunction as baseline where some members make a habit of abusing other members and will absolutely make an issue of it until management does something.

Mostly because it's illegal for an employer to operate a business that way.

Once is an accident, twice is a pattern.

Three times is enemy action.

My reading would be that it's best if you accept the apology (don't retaliate). But that doesn't mean you wouldn't mention it to HR or a manager. And it doesn't mean management wouldn't fire them if it's effecting the workplace culture.

Agreed, I dont have to accept apology. It has nothing to do with being thin or thick skinned, that is just attempt to make me feel bad about not being doormat.

It is professional to continue working professionally. That is about the extend of duty. The rest is on how I judge the situation to be.

It's always a matter of degree, though. If someone grabs a boob, then one time is way too many and they need to go. If they say "Hey guys,..." and someone expresses discomfort with the genderedness of the phrase, a few warnings are warranted; different people will have different feelings about whether such a thing is ever enough to fire someone, and that's valid.

The middle ground is where thickness of skin comes in, and while it's not on you to buy in to your employer's standard, it is on the employer to set a standard.

In that respect, I don't think Tesla has been very clear here. I have no idea from this article where the actual line is.

> "Hey guys,..." and someone expresses discomfort with the genderedness of the phrase

Is "guys" still gendered? I thought it was used to refer to any group of people, male or female, pretty much since the days of "Friends".

Humpty Dumpty was half right[1]. Words mean what the speaker thinks they mean, but they also mean what the listener thinks they mean, which might not be the same thing. The essence of clear communication is to align these two viewpoints.

Guys is gendered if you think it is. I've lightly offended groups of women in the past - well after Friends started! - by referring to them as "guys".

Once is a miscommunication. To continue to call them guys even after they've said they don't like being called guys would be indistinguishable from intentionally causing offence, especially considering the ready availability of other words that serve the same linguistic purpose.

[1] http://www.bartleby.com/73/2019.html

I try to avoid it when I can because one female colleague commented on it (not sure if it was related to my uses or someone else's because prior to this I never noticed it, but she brought it to HR).

As a guy I feel like it's a "meh" issue, and most of the women I know agree and use the phrase themselves, but if it bugs someone it costs me zero to avoid it.

I'm trying to bring back "cats". It's gender neutral, and implies coolness to whom you are referring to. And we are coming up on the 20's again.

> genderedness of the phrase, a few warnings are warranted

Are you serious? You are comparing physical harassment against your body with freedom of speech? Wow... No, it does not warrant a warning. Otherwise we can get offended by random stuff and blame it on others. Plus guys and lads are used for all genders in some countries.

You don't have freedom of speech in the workplace.

I agreed with the sentiment that sometimes unnecessary words are said and soon regretted, but I wish they mentioned that this cannot be the norm. You can’t say sorry once a day.

Oh that's about the same as sincere condolences.

Sincere means nothing. It has become an ISO word. :)

Sorry != Making Amends

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