‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.
I don't understand why the US has identity theft. Is it because there's no national ID? Here in Europe we don't have any "secret" number that someone can just use to open a bank account in your name.
I have lost the battle to clear my name. Different states in Germany for example have different police systems and argh..
Germany might have such a system thought.
For me with my German bank account, sending money this way always requires a one time use code. The code is not digital, the bank sends you a list of 100+ codes printed on a piece of paper. So, I'm not really worried at all because there is no possible way for a scammer to get my codes.
But abuse is very low, as it requires that whoever does it identifies themselves first at another bank, and opens a merchant account (which has other verifications). And then reversing it is easy, too.
And you can't even shop with stolen IBANs at Amazon, because every major retailer will first send you a 1ct transaction with transaction info set to a OTP you use to verify that you own the account.
I'd add that SEPA being mandatory for all participating countries has simplified transfers a great deal. Now most banks remember creditors, just like a phone book but for money, so sending money from your phone is pretty neat.
Additionally, the SEPA effort created ISO 20022, which is gaining ground worldwide as a one-stop-shop format for financial transfers. See this article from the US Federal Reserve a couple of weeks ago: https://fedpaymentsimprovement.org/news/press-releases/feder...
SCT is entirely push, and requires signing the transaction with your card, or using at least 2FA for verification. This doesn’t happen by accident.
SDD is entirely pull, and is the only one that could theoretically be abused, but that’s as mentioned also not that easy.
SDD can be reversed without giving any reason for a whooping 8 weeks by the customer sometimes simply by clicking "reverse" and entering a TAN.
B2B is a different beast though.
This and variations are very common in Europe.
There used to be some public discussions on the alphabay forums, which was filled with small time bank fraudsters from both the US and the EU. The EU ones actually seemed much more prevalent.
I couldn't find many interesting scrapes quickly, but this one might be worth a look: https://evidencebasedsecurity.org/forums/data/dk/darkode_scr...
I'm sure there's an AB forum scrape floating around somewhere too... But not here https://www.gwern.net/DNM-archives
I believe the AlphaBay forums were integrated into the main site and so would be findable in the AB dump; most DNMs kept their forums on separate .onions so had to be crawled separately.
I'll grab the dump and check the contents anyway.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm
He published his bank account details (and how to find his address) and dared people to withdraw funds from it. Which people did.
The best part, I think, is Clarkson's response:
Clarkson now says of the case: "Contrary to what I said at the time, we must go after the idiots who lost the [personal information] and stick cocktail sticks in their eyes until they beg for mercy."
1. Opened with a fake identity
2. Stolen funds received
3. Stolen funds transferred to a bank with (intentionally) poor record keeping, potentially bouncing around a few more times.
Wire transfers seem to be a big hole at the moment.
A utility company Direct Debited money from me when they screwed up and billed me for someone else's supply. I called my bank, said I wanted the Direct Debit cancelled and the money returned, they did it and the money was back in my account the same day.
The utility company sent me all manner of outraged paperwork, including threatening to set lawyers on me, but they couldn't magically take my money, and sure enough once they understood their mistake I got an apology and they wrote off all my actual bills for the past 12 months.
But when I did have direct debit it always included the maximum pay amount which I usually set 2x the amount of average bill so if utility company makes a mistake payment will not go through.
What is proof of residence? A copy of your apartment lease or something like that?
Proof of residence is a copy of your lease, or a bill by a power or phone company, basically a piece of formal correspondence with your address on it, so you can sort of prove you live where you say.
The bank photocopies all this, so if you forge an ID card to include your photo, they store the photo too, and if you get caught you're in deep trouble, as forgery is a serious crime. I think that's actually what prevents most identity theft here.
I had a choice between either using my eID for verification, or doing a video call and showing the ID into the camera (in a way that their systems can automatically verify the security measures).
It took 20 minutes to go from nothing to having an account, and being able to move money to ans from it.
But it's usually trivial to purchase a forgery.
However, purchasing a thousand SSNs and automating signups sounds hell of a lot easier than purchasing a thousand passports and physically visiting the bank offices.
For example, banks will photocopy your passport and verify the signature on it to ensure that it's correct.
(Basically, there's an algorithm used to compute a 30 digit hash on the ID or passport, which is computed from the IDs content and a secret seed. Anyone can verify this hash easily with open algorithms and tools, but only the government can create them).
Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands, so it's not worth it for mass scamming. Also, you'd have to show up in person and risk immediate arrest if the forgery gets detected.
It's not, I've held several. For EU countries.
>unless you've got contacts with organized crime
Or an internet connection!
>Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it
My personal experience has been very different. But I guess this'll vary from country to country.
>there's not much demand among "normal people" for it
How many undocumented migrants are there in Europe again? Are those people not "normal"?
>Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands
Nonsense, hundreds.
And I'm also heavily doubting that an internet connection is enough to get a forged ID card. It does elude me how one would do that without some sort of special machines.
Even the reddit fakeid community seems to have some pretty good EU ids.
As in an actual national ID that can be used to open bank accounts and cross borders, or some other sort of non-official ID that might be good enough to get you into bars?
Edit: or given the thread context you mean forgeries of the same level as US driver licenses for under age drinking, which is quite possible, but such forgery is readily distinguishable by anyone who has actually seen real EU ID card.
These.
>ID-2 format laminated cardstock
Not these, I've seen a plenty of US ones like this.
I am talking about forgeries specifically sold for the purpose of opening bank accounts.
What I'm hearing is our idiotic age limit on drinking makes ID forgery lucrative enough to outweigh the risks. Therefore: The drinking age in the USA is largely responsible for making identity theft easier.
I'm kidding, another major hole in this is a unique nexus of states having different ID/Driving License implementations and the fact that a vast portion of our citizens lack a passport.
Also, I'm not sure where the money is in the current system, but every time the USA tries to create a national ID all sorts of astroturfed nonsense comes out about Big Brother and COMMNUNISM!!
https://ants.gouv.fr/Les-solutions/2D-Doc
Translated: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...
At least within the Netherlands, your residence is officially registered with the municipality. This is tied in with your Citizen Service Number (BSN). Without this, you cannot open a bank account.
There is a national ID number, equivalent to SSN, which is printed on the ID, and to which the credit history is linked. It is used for distinguishing identity, but not for authentication. For authentication you need the physical ID and sometimes the pin code. The ID card carries a digital certificate which makes them hard to forge (I’ve never heard of outright forgery), and allows for online identity (like filing taxes or opening a bank account online). Obtaining a new ID requires either presenting the old one, or visiting the police to have your identity verified in other ways.
Also in most European countries the administration knows your official address and companies can check that you live where you pretend to.
My first credit card application was rejected with no explanations.
Getting your bank accounts emptied sucks much more than having someone open a credit card in your name.
Were these wires to a company that receives lots of similar wires? Do/did you have a history of sending wire transfers? Were any of these wire transfers a significant chunk of your account balance?
All of these things matter. In the US the average person is simply far more likely to be sent to the branch when wiring $10k than in EU.
In the USA, wire transfers average $10-25 on the outbound. Inbound, domestic wire transfers are often free, but inbound International transfers can run you $15.
This fee structure is why you see Vimeo and Square Cash (and PayPal before those) become so popular.
I think we most be from different parts of Europe. Where I live it is hard to avoid getting one or more credit cards
Everyone I know in Europe with a “real”credit card just has an Amex.
According to https://merchantmachine.co.uk/visa-mastercard-amex/ there are very few places in Europe where AmEx is #1 for credit cards (and, being from the UK, I'm actually surprised to see UK as one of those countries... I would have bet money on Visa/Mastercard having higher market share than AmEx here, even for credit cards alone).
From personal experience: what kind of cards (both debit vs credit, and what network they're on) varies massively in different EU countries.
In the US it collects points and cashback and you can magically go above the limit if you have money on your checking account. You have to do really really crazy stuff to get a transaction rejected. It gives you insurance for car rentals and concierge services for things I never considered.
In Europe I had a Visa and a MasterCard. No points, no cash back. Couldn’t go over the limit, forced to pay everything off every month. If you don’t, card is blocked.
In the US you can (often?) pay off as little as $25 on a massive CC debt and there’s a lot of interest on what you don’t pay off. I didn’t have any interest in Europe, it just stopped working if I didn’t pay it off next month.
From what I can tell, most Americans wouldn’t recognize my European Visa or MasterCard as a credit card. It behaves like a half step between debit and credit.
Are other cards in Europe closer to the American version?
That being said the debit card version is the one you get by default, and the credit card version is something you have to ask for separately.
- In the UK, Visa/Mastercard are the most common networks used for bank debit cards, using them pulls money from your bank account directly. Most banks give most adults (citation needed, but I think) a debit card by default with an account.
- In the UK, you can apply for credit cards from a number of companies, including banks (but it's a seperate to any bank account you might have with them), and credit card only companies. Different providers offer different types of cards, and the kind of deal you can get will depend on your credit history, salary, etc. They will (nearly always) have a credit limit, which could be a few hundred or could be very large. They will have a specific rule about minimum payments - some might want your balance paid in full each month, others will ask for a minimum payment (which could be a tiny percent of the amount owed) each month. If you pay in full, you don't get charged interest. If you take longer to pay, but within the agreed terms, you'll pay some sort of interest, which could be reasonable or extremely expensive depending on the card you have. Some cards offer benefits (points or cashback, maybe other perks like special deals, concierge services, etc.) while some are purely lines of credit with no other benefits.
- In France, I was given a Visa debit card when opening a standard bank account. No experience with French credit cards.
- In Belgium, if you want a card on the Visa/Mastercard networks, you need to get a credit card - most people use debit cards which use different networks (I think they use Maestro and another one..)
They basically don't exist here.
I have a small "CREDIT" label next to the chip of my new card and airlines (EasyJet, Ryanair...) now reject my card if I select the cheaper "Debit card" payment option.
But it has different laws so that they're not as exploitative. The card companies accepted these laws in order to get a chance at the relatively wealthy British customer base. In particular:
* Issuers have to tell you each month how much it's going to cost in total to pay off your debt gradually, which is usually a scarily enormous figure. * Issuers own the risk of buying most things with the card. If you pay £200 for a hat from an online merchant with the card, and then the merchant goes out of business without delivering, the law says the Issuer bought that hat, you owe nothing. * Issuers own the risk of card fraud. Unfortunately juries and judges both tend to believe the smartly dressed bank official in a trial, but in law all the responsibility for fraud lies with the Issuer unless they can prove it's your fault.
A lot of people like me have a credit card, and then have the issuing bank also automatically pay off the balance every month from their current account. So the effect is that their credit card is a rolling 30 day interest free loan.
Lived in Sweden for the past 12 years, and never seen anybody us an Amex card (seen lots of ads for Amex though). Mastercard seems to own basically the entire credit card market here.
In my country (Bosnia), there's pretty much no difference between them. Maybe half a euro more per month for one or the other. All the banks I know of let you pick between them. Citizens usually pick randomly. They're accepted the same, you still have to chase your own bank's ATMs to avoid unnecessary fees etc.
So I am not sure what is the difference between these cards and "US-style" cards. Maybe that we only need to get an automated credit check based on past years tax reports to get them, instead of having to work hard to get a good credit score?
The differences between different parts of Europe can be larger than the difference between some parts of Europe and USA
Forging or getting a fake ID is harder than counterfeiting money (maybe accessible to organized crime, but certainly not worth the cost/effort/risk just to steal a few thousand dollars); lost/stolen IDs have a registry that all the banks check; and you have to show up in person so if detected you don't get a second chance, you're leaving the building in handcuffs.
Seriously, the only problem with IDs I recall from banking was the use of IDs bought off of homeless people to register shell companies for money laundering, but those were real IDs and usually with the real owner "hired" for the initial account opening.
In any case, most people I know always carry their ID card with them in their wallet. You don't need it all that often, but you might as well carry it around, and having government issued proof of your identity is actually quite handy in many situations (situations that are handled with SSID and/or credit card in the US).
Fair enough, but still, that's not a requirement here, and seems weird and oppressive (indeed my memory is that being required to register where you lived was a classic example of the non-free-ness of the Soviet Union).
> In any case, most people I know always carry their ID card with them in their wallet. You don't need it all that often, but you might as well carry it around, and having government issued proof of your identity is actually quite handy in many situations (situations that are handled with SSID and/or credit card in the US).
Sure, in practice I carry my driving license around most of the time in the UK. But the fact that I don't have to feels important.
Hypothetically, if you owned two houses, and spent exactly 182.5 days per year in each, an outside observer would not be able to tell which one you considered to be your true home. So that observer might presume it is not your home, and prevent you from voting there, or presume that it is, and levy location-based taxes as though it were your full-time residence. Worse, different observers could make those determinations separately, and you might end up paying double taxes while being denied the ability to vote in either place.
There are also concerns about the correct address the government should use to send its official communications to you. It isn't always about knowing exactly where to send the cops in ninja gear to rouse you out of bed at 2 AM.
Is the passport the weird part or always carrying something to identify yourself weird?
Because I'm always carrying a wallet, with identification in the US; which I must be able to show to certain agencies at any time.
Which agencies and for what reason? There is no general obligation of US citizens to carry identification or even to provide your name to authorities unless you are reasonably suspected of a crime.
I sat in the back of a police car for a hour while they researched everything about me.
Again, there was no No U-Turn sign. I was simply suspected of something, of which the police never informed me of.
That was the day I learned I always needed my license, for apparently any reason, in the US. Even if you're white.