Hacker News Reader

Comment by DanBlake | Hacker News Reader

Hard to believe nobody has mentioned Tel Aviv. Definitely the #1 spot outside the USA. Soooo many startups coming out of israel lately.

View on HN

Tel Aviv has many pluses:

* Good programming talent.

* Access to capital. (Yossi Vardi alone funds a lot of startups.)

* Great English skills.

And some downsides:

* Young tech people can be whisked away by the military in a heartbeat. (And the draft can go up to 40 years old I hear.)

* Not as cheap as it used to be. Talented people make only a bit less than they would in the US.

* The culture tends to be more argumentative than the US. You can find yourself spending too much time arguing about minor details and not building product.

* Design talent can be atrocious. They aren't as focused on aesthetics as Western Europe or the US.

* Ethnicity based immigration policies.

* Flying there is a nightmare for non-Jews (sorry to put it bluntly, but it's true, I know from first-hand experience). And if you hire a young male Arab in the US, they will probably refuse to go back after visiting the airport once.

Most Israelis get drafted at age 18. They get out of the army at ages 20/21 or so. People out of top quality computer related military units have a lot of experience both as hackers and managers. There's really no being 'whisked away by the military' once you've served your term (Other than reserve duty, but that's relatively minor).

I visited 11 years ago and still remember it being one of the most vibrant energetic places I've been fortunate enough to goto.

another plus point - awesome beaches

though you never hear of a non-israeli startup based in Tel Aviv

It could be because until recently, few people outside Israel thought of it as a place for a startup. That's probably going to change over the next few decades.

My understanding is that it can be pretty hard to get an appropriate visa unless you're jewish (although this may have changed recently).

yeah; I almost got a job at a startup there; the deal fell through because I found out they wanted to pay me half what I make here about the same time they found out I didn't have any jewish ancestry.

This has not changed.

I recall a number of expat-ran startups in Tel Aviv when I lived there during the first dot com boom. US/UK presence is strong in the industry, and English often serves as a common language to Israelis, Russian immigrants, American expats, European sales reps etc. The TechAviv meetup, for example, takes place in English ( http://www.techaviv.com/ )

Nir,

the reason that many tech events in Israel are in English, is not because of it's serving as a "lingua-franca" of our diverse population, but because almost always we have foreign guests or foreign speakers. It's enough to have one high-profile foreigner in the audience, so the entire event will be in English. The small meetups with only Israeli attendants are held in Hebrew. Even if the lectures or talk are in Hebrew, slides most likely will be in English. Also I would not call Jewish immigrants from North America - "expats". Thought there is a big Anglo-Saxon Jewish immigrant community (US,Canada,UK,SA,Australia,NZ).

I'm from Israel (temporary relocated to Europe), but thinking about moving to SF Bay Area for number of reasons. I contacted by our local VCs once in a while, but still it's not the same scale as in the Valley. Also my product based on Erlang/OTP with virtually no experienced people in Israel in Erlang or functional languages at all. The last reason, I work in Semiconductors industry and it's only logical to move to Silicon Valley ;)

Regarding moving to one of European countries: I would be careful, if you planning to hire people there. Most of the countries has strict labor codes, limiting number of hours employees can work and large vacations. So it might be not a good fit for startup. One of the reasons, Intel Larabee project is failed, because large chunk of the project was assigned to Intel Germany ;) VC frequently use word "hungry". Like: "I will fund him, if he is hungry enough". I think for your startup you need to choose a place were people are hungry. Hungry for success, hungry for money, etc. Unfortunately, Continental Europe is not such a place ;)

Good points. I remember how weekly R&D meetings at a startup I worked for switched from Hebrew to English when a single, junior level American member joined the team. I didn't give it much thought at the time, only after a few years living outside Israel I realized how non-obvious this is..

I think the hunger for risk & success is a good point, and perhaps the main characteristic of Tel Aviv, from business to art to nightlife. Though it takes a certain kind of person, especially if you grew up in much safer Europe/North America.

Good luck with your startup! Will be happy to buy you a beer if you pass by NYC, en route to SF :)

True, but you have to take into account that Tel Aviv is one of the few places where terror attacks aren't just something politicians pull out of their bags to scare voters - their are an actual thread.

These days that's actually more of an issue in areas directly bordering the Palestinian Authority (such as Jerusalem).

Tel Aviv didn't really have much terrorist bombing recently - I wouldn't be surprised if more people (even per-capita) died in NYC, London or Madrid in the past 10 years than in Tel Aviv, and you'd never consider terrorism to be a reason not to move to either of these cities.

Regardless of where you decide to build your start up there will be local dangers. Not sure of the stats but you are probably more likely to get taken out by a drive-by in California, or a mugging/beating in New York than a terrorist in Israel. The stress of knowing there are terror attacks is probably what will get to you first. I don't think the OP mentioned stress/crime free environment as one of his pre-requisites, but if that place exists, please let me know about it.

Not just tel aviv but also hertzelia (a tech hub just north of ta).

That's my hometown :) A very high concentration of tech companies in the Herzliya Industrial Zone (almost wholly tech companies and fancy restaurants these days).

How hard is it to live there or immigrate if you're not Jewish?

I tried searching for this question and turned up a lot of alarmed newspaper articles about a rising tide of non-Jewish immigration, and even government promises to do something about this.

The problem they have now is illegal immigration - either people coming on a limited time work visa and staying after it expires, or East African immigrants coming in via Egypt.

Either way, it's tough to get a work visa, about as difficult as the US or Europe. If I were doing it, I'd go on a tourist visa. All in all Tel Aviv is a great place to hang for a while, but if you're looking to relocate somewhere for a year or so I'd look for a cheaper and easier places in South America or Asia. Even Vancouver might be cheaper. (Or if you're an EU member there's Berlin and possibly some Easter Europe cities?)

Vancouver might be cheaper

And Montreal is even cheaper (about 2/3 the cost of living).

can you work on a business/tourist visa? At least in America, if we catch you doing that, we throw you out.

Officially, certainly not - I don't know of any country where you're allowed to work on a tourist visa. But in reality, you're sitting in a cafe with a laptop. Who can tell if you're building a web app or checking Twitter? I mean, you go into most actual start ups' offices during business hours and you still can't tell ;)

eh, being able to openly, legally work is a pretty big advantage, I would think, especially when trying to get investors and stuff. were I an investor, I'd be much less likely to invest in something that was legally shady even if I thought it was morally okay.

I think in that case, it would probably be a problem in most countries (unless, say, you're from the EU and pick another EU nation etc). There are nations like Costa Rica that have an entrepreneur visa, but AFAIK you have to employ certain number of locals and show some upfront investment to get it.

If I were in the OP's position, I believe I'd incorporate (if I really need to at all) where I have citizenship, then work on the product wherever I choose.

If you're talking an office with employees etc, that's a different story, but if it's a couple ppl working from an apt or cafe, perhaps with other staff telecommuting from where they live, I can't imagine this would a problem anywhere.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com