A company is just a legal construction but we let people transgress the legal constrains that should rule its behavior.
A company is just a legal construction but we let people transgress the legal constrains that should rule its behavior.
The much simpler solution is not to bother taxing these things you can't see. Why don't we set the corporate profit tax to zero, and then this whole argument goes away.
Tax is collected every time they sell a computer in Germany. Tax is collected every time they employ someone. Tax is collected every time someone sells shares and profits. These seem like good things to tax, as they involve actual people and take place unambiguously in particular countries. If you'd like to collect more tax, then by all means adjust the rates.
What's needed are international agreements how to handle those licenses, that you can't simply push them to tax heavens, but tax has to be paid where they are created or used or whatever.
"tax has to be paid where they are created or used"
Yes exactly. When they sell a cool computer for E2000, they have used their brand to sell it, and there tax is collected. The sale took place in an apple store in Berlin. Angela can adjust the tax rate to anything she pleases.
And to create that brand, they had to pay some guy $200K to write jingles, and this transaction is also taxed. This guy works in a spaceship which has landed in San Francisco. Donald can adjust this rate to anything he pleases.
Neither of these ends can easily move to a tax haven. Everything in between happens in the financial equivalent of the cloud. It seems to me a fool's errand to argue about which bits of that cloud were in whose territory.
Anyway I will shut up now!
... because they offset all local profits to expenses incurred in licensing the brand.
> When they sell a cool computer for E2000, they have used their brand to sell it, and there tax is collected.
But tax is supposed to be collected there and it's not, because Apple accountants immediately declare all profits as debits towards AParadise, so there is $0 profit. That $2000 laptop is now sold at cost, so there is nothing to tax - unless you start taxing expenses, and good luck with that (you'll kill half the economy overnight). All profit goes to AParadise, and the European economy is now at net negative: it pays for the roads that Apple trucks use to deliver their China-made wares, it pays for the social security that frees disposable income for Euro citizens to buy laptops, and in exchange it gets a big fat $0.
The solution is to do away with the "IP licensing" regime altogether, or tax it at absurd rates to discourage these moves. Otherwise you might as well give up and turn into Somalia.
You could argue it should be higher, or lower. It's frequently adjusted.
My point is that this transaction is what certainly happened in Germany. Taxing this is very clear, transparent, and fair.
Whether or not the global empire turned a profit that quarter (maybe you bought a Samsung!), and which bits of the global empire were losing money or making money... and which bits are independent or not really independent... these are much harder to pin down, perhaps impossible. And attempting to do so (as we do now) encourages all sorts of strange behaviour, which requires lots of fancy lawyers, and can't be copied by smaller competitors. I don't know why we do this.
I'm very much not arguing for zero taxes, I do not want to live in Somalia.
I'm arguing for a tax system which doesn't reward stupid tricks --- the financial equivalent of moving your email server 100m across some border. Instead of ever stricter rules about where your server is located, we just have to get used to the idea that the cloud exists, and if the cloud is in Somalia or on the moon who cares? It's where the human beings are that matters.
> I don't know why we do this.
We do this because we know that global companies are sociopathic, and left to their own devices would never contribute to the societies they benefit from. So we try to drag them kicking and screaming back into human decency; and they try to escape in more and more creative ways. It's like asking why we pursue burglars.
> I'm very much not arguing for zero taxes
But you are; you are arguing for zero taxes for international companies, leaving only individuals and geo-restricted entities to deal with the task of paying for the cost of living in a civilized society. That's increasingly what happens in practice already, and it's a huge part of the problem. The best case in point is VAT, a regressive tax that is paid almost entirely by consumers - the same people who are also paying income tax, which is still the primary source of funds for any government. So individuals get hammered twice, while wealthy corporations stash away piles of money. That isn't right.
No, you should think of the tax man standing between the customer and the seller. Whether he takes the bank notes from the customer's hand just before, or from the seller's hand just afterwards, really doesn't matter.
The legal incidence of the tax is that the shop writes a check to the taxman, but this is not very interesting. The economic incidence is fuzzier and more interesting, and depends on the elasticities -- if the tax were made 500 euros, would the customer fork out more or would Apple collect less? This obviously depends on lots of things. It seems bizarre to me that when we discuss VAT as a consumption tax we follow neither of these things, and instead assign it to the purchaser -- but this is just some convention.
(I'm imagining sales tax not VAT for simplicity. Or that the company made the goods entirely from scratch. I think VAT will be collected on the wholesale price when the computer crosses the border from China, and then on the retail mark-up when it's sold... but no change to the moral of the story.)
By "sociopathic" you mean amoral. Like plants in your garden. The weeds will take over if you let them. Personifying them doesn't help with understanding this. But whether you pay the gardener by handing him the cash, or by pinning it to the thorn bush for him to collect, really really doesn't matter.
The issue is that VAT, in practice, ends up being a game where the purchaser hands money to the company, they hand part of it to the taxman, then immediately get most of it back anyway (by maximizing their tax claim). That's why it's assigned to the purchaser: in the end, it's the only subject that is actually out of pocket for the full amount, the company having reclaimed most of it back from the taxman. This is why governments love VAT: because it's a tax on people, not on companies. I understand why somebody arguing for flat or nonexistent taxes might like it, but it certainly is not part of the solution from the perspective of making businesses pay their fair share - the opposite, in fact. In that sense, it's pointless to use it to model anything beyond price pressure on consumers; and that is not what the problem is about.
> Or that the company made the goods entirely from scratch.
That's one of the problems of economic theory (or rather Econ 101, as we discussed earlier): everything is so simplified that it ends up bearing to resemblance with reality. Nobody makes anything from scratch anymore, and the mess that is IP law (or other rules around "services") makes it so that a company can basically decide how much of this or that tax they actually want to pay by moving entities around the world and making up enough input vat to offset most of their output vat. And of course, they want to pay barely enough to avoid jail, so in the end, the high-tax societies from which they extract most profit are actually the ones that end up out of pocket.
> The weeds will take over if you let them.
Weeds is a good parallel except it isn't, since I cannot extract money for the gardener from weeds - whereas I absolutely can extract money from companies to shore up the impact they have on the societies they benefit from. That's the problem.
This would likely have the positive side-effect of protecting smaller national brands from foreign competition, but might make the country less appealing to foreign investors, so it can't be done willy-nilly - but it's the only way. This is not unlike what China does - money goes in but it's not allowed to go out.
This is done a lot in anti-trust settlements. You can sell your IP to Apple Germany, but then Apple Germany is independent and could go sell that/licence that however they see fit. Including selling to competitors of Apple US.
If you're transferring IP but the receiving organisation is basically under your control.... are you really transferring anything?
Similarly, the ability to borrow against assets which are domiciled in a different country is pretty much how international banking works, not a loophole.
The US created this quagmire by choosing (unlike all other modern countries) to tax profits in all territories. Then they combined this with only taxing the profits when they're repatriated.
This legislative own-goal is the root of the problem, it seems to me.