MythBuster's Hyneman Launches IndieGogo to Build VR Shoes Like Mini Treadmills | Hacker News Reader

MythBuster's Hyneman Launches IndieGogo to Build VR Shoes Like Mini Treadmills

roadtovr.com

87 pointsevo_949 comments

This kind of reeks of vaporware and that's sort of the pitch I guess. Hardware ideas are crowdfuneded all the time that are kind of lofty, but I felt like the common thinking at this point is that you really should have taken the risks to prove the thing plus show that you could potentially build it at scale before funding. There are so many ways that the funding of this project can go totally sideways (unlike the shoes!). It even feels weird to have everyone's favorite myth walrus promoting something so vapory. He's sort of known for being a stodgy, no nonsense guy in terms of tech.

This all seems tone deaf. Maybe the shoe is like tunnel vision VR before we had the oculus. The Ah-ha moment with VR was accelerometers, they at least kickstarted with a paper one you could start to use no matter what! The backpack and axe with whacky cannon fuse might satisfy some Bustin' fans, it leaves me pretty flat. The branding is horror show gawdy too. Promise me a DIY kit where I can play with the terrible shoes idea myself to really help you get there.

Jamie! Your audience for a thing like this is builders like you! Sure you can get some MB cash-in with this but if what I'm paying for is future skates, give me some ruddy future skates so at least I can break my neck with you! Get me some brushless DCs with nice aluminum hubs and some 3D printed tread parts. Release with a community edition with STL files to open up the experimentation.

Either that or just go get a bank loan like any other person and take some risks on something you believe in. I do see from the outshot why your'd prefer to risk someone else's money. It's all pretty silly. But if you don't buy it, why should we?

“It might work. It might not work. We’ll know soon.”

Is IMO a completely reasonable stance. People putting up money are making the bet that it's a good idea, and can either buy an actual product eventually, or if it turns out to be a bad idea nobody is trying to manufacture all those "pre-orders".

The benefit is without needing to ramp up production you can just focus on the Research side of R & D.

I do not agree with you stance on crowd funding in this instance. I also think the rewards are dumb, ugly, lazy and they could be engaging better with the audience that is actually interested in the skates.

IMO, the entire idea of rewards is a poor fit for crowd funding. It confuses funding with buying an actual product that actually exists.

I understand that philosophy I think and platforms like Patreon do a great job of fostering community in that way, still people want something for the contribution. Even if it's a private newsletter, stickers, challenge coin, or in this case cannon fuse. I think when making a request like they are making here they are missing a huge opportunity to engage a passionate community of open source hardware hackers, and they could totally do that in a low cost way that protects their primary IP. I think the thing they are offering, maybe is something die hard Hyni-fans are into, but it literally some wire, bandaids, lights, and cannon fuse. It's just weird.

If they really don't want to share and engage that community, aside from the software devs, I think they have a really long row to hoe. I would imagine the concern is really neat IP because they have cool dudes working on it, but that locks you right in for a very classic funding model that needs a buttload more than $50k to get off the ground. Again, I feel like the original Occulus kickstarter walked this line fantastically.

As an AR/VR Researcher, I wouldn't touch this gizmo that's being presented with a 10ft poll.

I really like that everywhere on the project, they state that it might not work. Many projects promise to deliver no matter what - it's good that Jamie and his team are setting realistic expectations.

This is why I will actually do my first donation on KickStarter.

It's IndieGogo, not Kickstarter.

It's possible they know, and meant Kickstarter :D

(But it's unlikely.)

(But sometimes it's fun to imagine silly stuff.)

Seem awfully weird to me to have marketing teams and people working on cad designs when the basic concept hasn't even been proven in 6 prototypes.

at least the VR application of the concept of motorized shoes hasn't been proven.

I guess this is just a "stepping stone" if you'll pardon the expression, toward a general purpose motorized shoe. So if this VR aspect is just a side trip on their grand scheme, maybe it makes more sense to have such a team in place working on what they are.

I think "Marketing Team" is a pretty generous term. This is one of those dudes using inkscape/the gimp and they got someone on UpWork to cad up a shoe from a sketch. Maybe did it themselves, but don't know how to go get some free substance materials to render that with a fabric and rubber look that would light properly.

There is nothing about this that says professional design or marketing folks are involved. No one seems to even know what a color wheel is or basic rules of text readability. How many fonts did they download? Shit looks like a 90's rave flier.

I'm all for DIY, whacky hardware projects (have a couple myself), and MythBustin'. But I think after they finished prototype number six everyone went over to Cody's house all drunk and went Old Man Ham on it. Jesus christ guys, get on Shutterstock and buy some templates.

EDIT: I totally just realized that this project is the engineer equivalent of a neighborhood dad garage band. Rock on brothers. Rock on.

Actual Link : https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jamie-hyneman-s-virtual-r...

I can see it how it would work for forward/backward movement but not how it could possibly work for lateral movement like pushing off of one foot.

To deal with that, they'd have to do some spherical drive/ trackball sort of thing.

Miniature Mecanum wheels[1][2] might be interesting for this.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tmiu1wpp_E

I remember Jamie talking about how much he loves his mecanum wheel forklift...

I like it. The link in the comments there to https://www.3d.run/ looks good too. It doesn't seem far from those Cybershoes to the VR Shoes, like it says if you're just allowing linear motion they're basically reverse treadmills (or just how I look on rollerskates!).

Snap on shoe based personal transport, like Heelies with motors, I can see working but without some very complex Mecanum style wheels I can't see the VR Shoe being functional any time soon (unless they have a killer new concept they've not told us about yet).

I can't see one feeling balanced in this sort of get-up.

Prior art (video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5hPyHxrz94

This is still the best VR solution to running and walking, and it's already shipped.

http://www.virtuix.com/

I just don't understand why they seem to no longer sell to consumers though.

I'm not sure I get Jamie's project.

Have you tried those Virtuix things?

Yes. Another problem is that back then it used Kinect. Not sure what it uses now. It's not perfect but it worked, at least a few years back.

Questions (the video didn’t answer)

Will it work on carpet?

What stops you from slipping?

What holds you in place? Does the motor move you backwards to match any forward movement?

Btw once we get all these vr accessories were really going to need wireless charging and a giant mat to dump all your stuff on when you’re done playing to charge it.

One more question: lateral stability? Ok a few more questions... When you try to jump or crouch, or sidestep, etc... are you going to snap an ankle? Can you jump in this? Quickly spin around?

If you have to put everything on a mat, I wouldn't called that wireless charging. That's like saying you can have a wireless network connection as long as your laptop is sitting on a special pad.

I think it has to work over a range of at least a few meters before I'd call it wireless.

My 10-yr old daughter described the current form of "wireless charging" as using the shortest possible cord.

That's incredibly insightful. The way I see lots of people charge their phones, you have a long cable so you can continue using it when it's charging. with the wireless charging, you have to leave it locked in place while it charges at 500ma for hours. It's neat at starbucks where I can pick up a quick extra few percent on my battery bar, but otherwise pretty useless.

It's not useless. It's great for charging overnight while sleeping, without the hassle of plugging in the cable before you go to sleep.

I imagine some specific types of disabled people might really appreciate it too. Plugging a cord in required a fair amount of dexterity and grip strength; far more than using the phone itself requires. But Qi charging? You could probably nudge it into position with your nose if you had to.

Great point! I never stopped to consider it as an accessibility technology.

I used to be ambivalent-to-negative about wireless charging pads, until I figured out that I could get a little desktop stand to set my phone in while I'm doing things on my PC.

I can just plop the phone down without having to fiddle around with uncovering the charging port and finding the cable, and I can still comfortably see and touch the screen if I need to.

Now I'm ambivalent-to-generally-positive, but it's still not exactly a life-changer.

I think the video was actually pretty clear in that they haven't really figured a lot of stuff out yet, and the funding is to do just that. It was very clear that the funding is for R&D, not for a final product.

> Will it work on carpet?

That one is answered in the FAQ of the campaign (=no)

What the FAQ doesn't answer though, even if it's in there, is why they need the $50,000. Their answer is just "because we hope you find it a fun adventure"

Moving hardware from the prototype stage to mass production to retail requires a sizable infusion of cash.

Hyneman probably has $50k down between his sofa cushions though?

He does explain in the video that as much as anything they're after a corpus of people to act as a focus group, which seems reasonable.

so, they're using tech they built to help you walk faster... to make shoes that don't let you walk anywhere. science!

hope it works out, seems like an interesting solution.

What speeds you up forwards can probably be used to slow you down if pointed backwards

Maybe someone will one-up and do some with a tread made of ball bearings.

"Estimated Operating weight up to 215 lbs"

c. 15 stone, c. 100kg

You should not back with your money something that rich people is not backing with his own money. Just saying.

VR will succeed because it doesn't involve a whole suit to make work. That's why the Vive and Oculus ship with only two controllers and a HMD. No glove or shoes to be fitted correctly, put on/off, cleaned, etc. This is also why the Vive Tracker won't ever go mainstream for gaming. People aren't sticking 3 large sensors on their body outside of edge uses cases and now you have 5 things to remember to recharge. If good full-body tracking comes to mainstream VR, we'll be doing it with cameras, not wearables.

This is absolutely the wrong way to go about this. Its clear that Hyneman is trying to ride the VR hype to sell motorized shoes, which sound more interesting to me as a mode of transportation than anything having to do with VR. Especially if you can put in Segway-like logic in them to help with balance.

On the flip side, considering how long walks are most people's only form of exercise its probably a bad idea all around like those hoverboards or that new mini-segway. If I bought any of these I'd be cutting a lot of calories I'm burning and lowering physical activity drastically. Short range travel should be by foot and losing that will just make our obesity epidemic worse.

> Its clear that Hyneman is trying to ride the VR hype to sell motorized shoes

Those are about being able to walk without moving. Yes, the shoes will be able to move you around but that's for centering the user back in the middle of the VR play area.

Outdoor / locomotion use is phase 3 which is "dream phase" and likely will never happen.

Anyway, this is a moot point since this crowdfunding is for prototype v.7 and not even for a product.

"Short range travel should be by foot and losing that will just make our obesity epidemic worse."

Yes -- the people in Wall-E. It has already begun without yet having autonomous shoes. That movie is frighteningly predictive.

Speaking of which, I could really go for some cupcake in a cup right now...~

But I live in America. Most short range travel doesn't even get you to the nearest grocer. If you can actually get anywhere by walking, you live in the urban core of a major city.

The Axiom is--by virtue of it being a cruise ship--essentially an ultra-dense city with a giant propulsion system strapped to it. It's probably around 4 km long, if you include the narrow pointy bits, with some minor convolution of the major pedestrian travel routes. In the early "cabin fever" years of the cruise, walking around everywhere was likely a common occurrence. But as new generations replace the old, distance expectations readjust. 100m becomes a long way to walk, because it is 2.5% the length of your world, and might take you two whole minutes if you stroll leisurely enough. Those are minutes you would have to be watching the interactive teledramas of the ship's integrated entertainment system on your tiny wearable screen, when it could be on a much larger, more immersive display!

The hoverchairs of the Axiom weren't just about not walking; they were also about being connected to the network 24-7, like Borg or Cybermen. Recall how extraordinary it was for Wall-E to get just two of the humans to notice that something interesting and different was happening away from their screens, in the real world. And they were excited about it, because they had never meaningfully explored the "real" world in their entire lifetime ("I didn't know we had a pool!"), so it was all new to them, and rendered in perfect photorealistic quality, with no level qeometry errors or frame-dropping.

Ready Player One is coming to theater screens soon, and if there were any justice in the world, Snow Crash would be, too. Humanity has this dream of connecting everyone to everyone else through the network, and it also has a nightmare where the network is an addictive drug, and everyone becomes a netjunkie and lets the real world become a barren wasteland.

Distance sucks. The great burden of civilization is that moving goods around takes time, because between where they are and where we want them to be, there's just so much distance. The mere proposal that treadmill shoes should exist for VR is an indication that world programmers are doing a stupid thing. They are importing the thing that many people hate about the real world, and making it a hard rule of the simulated world, too. You would be better off strapping a vibrating belt to your waist; let it buzz whenever you fire the thrusters on your powered exoskeleton, and give yourself a tiny shock whenever you activate a teleporter or traverse a portal. People want instant travel, and you don't need simulated walking for that.

The network generates a new distance expectation. The world is now zero meters across. Stepping from New York to London is a journey of milliseconds rather than miles. Whether the world is 4 km long, or 40000 km around, walking just can't compete with that. If you can go anywhere interesting faster than you can walk to your mailbox, pedestrian travel is just doomed. Even mechanized travel is doomed. That's why delivery services like Amazon are booming. For brick-and-mortar stores, you have to spend 15 minutes on traversing distance before you can even start shopping. And that store might not even have what you want.

> If good full-body tracking comes to mainstream VR, we'll be doing it with cameras, not wearables.

you're not going to physically move your body through 3d space with cameras.

dude your post is all over the place. i can't ascertain if you play VR games or if you even watched the linked video.

and not for nothing, but you can't ask for no sensors and also ask for no dystopia. except we're not going to be fat, we're going to be plunged in some weird seasalt bath with no holes on our body anymore except the Lightning jack that's replaced our faces

You're making some unjustified assumptions about where the calories go when walking. If you walk across a flat surface, such as from one end of a sports field to another, you will expend very little energy [1] in that motion. (Proof: There are other more efficient ways to do it, such as bicycles.) You will expend some energy in air resistance, and you'll expend a lot of energy in moving your limbs up and down and sideways. Swinging motions help the efficiency but that's still where your energy goes. When you're run out of energy and can't run anymore, note that the problem isn't that you are no longer capable of moving forward, but that you're no longer capable of convincing your legs to pick up off the ground. (Again, if you gas out on a bike, you may not be able to pedal anymore, but it's not like your body suddenly stops because of that. You keep coasting.)

For more direct proof, play Dance Dance Revolution on a high difficulty mode. You won't go anywhere, but you'll be feeling it.

This could well improve people's physical activity level. It especially opens up some options in places where "just go outside" is not necessarily a viable option, or not necessarily a particularly helpful one.

[1]: Note "energy" here is chemical energy expended by the body, the "human" definition, not the physics definition.

>VR will succeed

Dang, that's a big assumption. As someone who's been a researcher in the field for over a decade, I definitely can't make that claim.

Valve even says the total concept may be flawed and they are comfortable[1] with complete failure.

Three (of many) big things to overcome:

* Lock in. People watch movies in the dark with other people. Head lunchbox is isolating and annoying.

* Transmittable skin infections.

* Stereo depth eye tricks messing with focus makes almost everyone sick and can have huge unknown effects on the brain, balance, and perception

We don't have light fields[2], easy holograms[3], or laser scanning projectors on a chip[4] yet, but we might next week. Very probably VR at current is the stone axe we are using to invent the steel one. In almost every practical way it's broken, even if useful. We have no fucking clue what the final form is going to look like.

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38992294

[2] https://www.magicleap.com/

[3] http://www.red.com/hydrogen

[4] http://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/mobile-world-co...

It's only annoying because there is currently no output for your friends to watch along while you're playing that isn't a complete hack.

That was worded like a rebuttal, but I think you agree with me. Sweet.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com