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Comment by fallingfrog | Hacker News Reader

This! I once took over programming a point of sale system that our (internal to the company) users were complaining about. Turns out there was no concept of tab sequence, you had to use the mouse for everything. I asked the previous programmer to show me how to use the form he created, and he started typing a phone number using the top row of the keyboard instead of the numpad. But hey, it had lots of javascript!

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To be fair, I only started using the numpad after I had a temp job in data entry. I hate laptops that don't have them now, but seeing as a lot of laptops cut them off, most people can't think num pads are that important.

Not paying attention to tab order in an enterprise app is a cardinal sin though.

When we bought MacBooks I bought a bunch of USB numeric keypads to plug in to their desktop monitor. Made a lot of folks doing data entry very happy.

Not paying attention to tab order is also bad for accessibility, e.g. for blind users.

> and he started typing a phone number using the top row of the keyboard instead of the numpad

As I'd expect any good programmer to...? As a 100+ wpm touch typist (including symbols + numbers) and former finance professional, I use the top row of the keyboard for numbers.

How is having 8 fingers available that don't have to move much going to be slower than using three that have to move up and down?

I get the point that the programmer wasn't behaving like the users; that's a good critique, but I'm picking up the vibe from this comment that you think the numpad is inherently better for that sort of thing? No way...

Edit: huh, seeing the chain of comments here, I guess I'm in the minority? I don't see how someone can consider them a touch typist (type quickly without looking at the keyboard) and not be able to reach and use numbers and symbols, but maybe a lot of folks here are like that? How do you program with numbers, and ampersands, and parentheses, and asterisks and the equal sign and underscores and all that, having to look down at the keyboard???

It just seems obvious to me that a skilled typist would be much faster using the top numbers than the numpad.

For those of us that have been fortunate enough to avoid having a job that involved an adding machine or cash register the number pad is an awkward AF to use. Conversely the top keyboard row is in range for touch typing.

I've avoided that job, but back when I still had a keyboard with a numpad I'd use that if I had to fill in numbers repeatedly. I can't touch type numbers accurately, it's just a bit out of reach.

People that do any kind of data entry or work in finance learn to use it too. The number pad is not just for cashiers.

Yeah, which is why I mentioned adding machines.

I dunno, I've used the number pad by default since I was a little cutter begging to sneak into my mom's classroom and play on the Apple II that was in there. I might be a weird one; I can't switch myself over to using WASD controls in video games either; I've got to use the arrow keys, and then hope that I can bind the other important commands to keys in that vicinity.

I've always found it easier to type long strings of numbers on the number pad. I don't know why, it's not as though I ever deliberately trained myself to use it, but for me the number pad is much faster than using the top row.

Your fingers don't have as far to travel, and there's no seeking involved (hand doesn't move)

Less ambiguity (three vertical rows, no horizontal movement), and the most-frequently entered keys (1, 2, 0) are not at extreme and hard-to-assess ends of the movement range.

Everything is much closer together, you don't have to move your hand only your fingers. It is clearly the better input device for pure digit sequences.

Not for left handed people. My primary hand is better/closer to the top row. My non-primary handle struggles with the keypad, especially if I don't use it very often - which I don't.

Worse, if you're on a laptop a lot then this habit is kicked out the door. Enabling a numpad on the keyboard is less efficient than just using the top row.

> Not for left handed people.

I'm left handed; the numpad is freakin' awesome for number entry. Back when I still played games like Descent and WoW, it was also very efficient to setup the mouse for my left hand and leave my right hand on the number pad. Aim and fire with mouse, maneuver with numpad (in Descent), or action bar items on numpad (in WoW).

I think that using phones trains the muscle memory for the number pad (although upside down). I have found the same thing though, where I instinctively can use the num pad much faster than I should be able to, with relation to the amount of time I use it.

I don't get your point about typing phone numbers. When I was being taught to touch-type in first and second grade, my teachers told me that I should type on the top row, not the numeric keypad. Not sure why. Maybe because it takes less time to move to the top row and back? Anyway, to me, typing numbers on the top row is not an obvious problem.

I mentioned that because I thought it showed how he'd never really watched one of the users in their job- once you get used to the numpad it's a lot faster. You can type in a long number very quickly without taking your eyes off the screen.

That is until you are entering dozens or hundreds of numbers.

The numpad is a considerably faster input method, and it can be performed one handed. For a point of sale system, this is critical: the clerk can juggle an item while typing the phone number (or price, or whatever)

Because most accountant and office types will use the numeric keypad and go blazing fast. That’s probably one reasons for the complaints. God help any PC tech who screws up their settings and doesn’t enable num-lock at boot.

It depends on the length of the number you're typing and the context.

In PoS, you're not likely to be typing many letters most of the time, so left hand for function keys, right hand for numbers is pretty good. You can move your hands if you move to a search.

For a POS system input is probably all numbers- look up customer by phone, make choices from a menu, enter quantities. Letters are for new customers and special instructions.

I worked at a print shop that switched from DOS to Windows for it's POS software, it was an order of magnitude slower. At least we could play solitaire though.

The teacher was just trying to focus your practice on one specific skill instead of another.

> Maybe because it takes less time to move to the top row and back?

Presumably this is it. I find typing on numpad is much faster and simpler, but 1) laptops typically don't have one and 2) on normal keyboards it takes my hands away from the main keyboard. Then I switched to a Kinesis Advantage2 and now the numpad is integrated into the main keyboard, using a foot pedal to toggle between main keys and integrated keys.

When most of the stuff that you type are numbers then numpad makes more sense than top row (also, many non-english keyboard layouts have numbers in top row shifted).

For POS and similar applications it actually makes sense to design the UI such that it can be used only with numpad, for example by using +,-,*,/ as function keys for common operations.

The touch-typing course was probably developed 50 years ago for typewriters, which don't have numeric keypads.

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