Airline revenue from extra fees increases | Hacker News Reader

Airline revenue from extra fees increases

washingtonpost.com

65 pointspetethomas148 comments

The nickel-and-diming of airlines has been clear to me for ages, but I found what I considered a surprising new low last year. I bought round-trip tickets but missed my outgoing flight. I booked a one-way trip for later the same day, reasoning that I would use my original return flight to come home.

Surprise! I found out (at the airport, trying to fly home a few days later) that because I hadn’t boarded the first flight, the airline had resold my seat on the return flight. I was not credited for the seat on the return flight (which was now unavailable to me). I wasn’t even notified that it was forfeited when my trip was cancelled. Pressed for time, I had to purchase an additional one-way ticket home.

I understand the motivation to resell an unused seat at flight time in the event of a no-show. This, however, struck me as a deliberate predatory theft of my reservation, a sort of loophole to deprive me of my reservation without recompense. I don’t think a scenario such as this is unforeseen by the airline (an honest misunderstanding); rather, I think it is exploited.

The airline may have a clause somewhere on their website explaining that the above is to be expected. That doesn’t make it square for me. The behavior of the airline was, IMO, unethical. If I ever face a similar scenario in the future, I will know to communicate explicitly with the airline about my intention to use my return ticket. However, I shouldn’t have to do so or risk finding myself stranded away from home.

Unfortunately that has been happening for years, long before checked bag fees were a thing. It is likely a way to make hidden city ticketing harder.

But how is that making them any money?

Wouldn't it make more sense to sell something and not do the service?

Or the actual service cost is so little that it makes 0 difference? Does airline get to keep airport tax? Fuel savings are negligible compared with all the taxes.

Because they can sell the same seat twice.

Actually, three times, since you still need to go to your destination. They have you over a barrel.

"Hidden city" ticketing is when you want to go from City A to City B, and notice that the airline charges less money for a ticket A -> B -> C than for a ticket A -> B. So you buy the A -> B -> C ticket and get off the plane at B and never fly onward to C.

Airlines really and truly do not like it when you do this. If you have a frequent-flyer account with them, it's usually grounds to have the account terminated and all points/miles in the account confiscated, for example.

The reason why the A -> B ticket is more expensive in some cases has to do with how the airline assigns differently-priced tickets to different routes. For example, if B is a business destination and C is a popular tourist destination, the airline can use the more expensive A -> B ticket (which business travelers buy regardless, since they're using company money) to subsidize cheap tourist fares A -> B -> C. When people try to work around this by buying the cheap A -> B -> C ticket and then only flying A -> B, that hits revenue multiple times: they've flown someone A -> B for less than what they wanted to charge on that route, and now they have an empty seat going B -> C. So airlines come down on this pretty hard whenever they think it's what you're doing (they're within their rights to say that if you want to fly A -> B, they have a published fare for that, and to say that they'll cancel all your frequent-flyer perks if you won't abide by that).

Now, suppose you book a multi-segment ticket for a round trip: A -> B -> C, return C -> B -> A. And then you never show up for the initial A -> B flight. The airline has no way of knowing what you plan to do unless you actually contact them and tell them what's going on. They just know you bought a ticket and then didn't use it, so if you don't get in touch with them they're going to cancel the whole thing. They'll also cancel if you have two separate tickets booked for the same day and overlapping times, since they know it's physically impossible for you to be on both of them. The solution here is to actually call the airline, or go to their ticket desk at the airport, and explain what happened before you go buying a separate last-minute ticket to try to replace your original one. Usually they'll rebook your original ticket to a different flight, for a change fee that's cheaper than the cost of a brand-new ticket.

This makes me glad I don't bother with FF miles and other airline gimmicks.

If you fly a lot FF miles and airline status aren't gimmicks. They can make you quite a bit more comfortable. Of course, if you only fly a couple times a year, the benefits are pretty much negligible.

I don't care. Airline's goal is to extract the most money from me. My goal is to extract the most services out of airline for the least amount of money.

The question asked was how do these policies make money for the airline. I've given the answer to that question. Whether you personally care about that or not isn't really relevant, since it wasn't your question.

No, what you did is provide airline-speak justification for doing it. Airlines route optimization and pricing optimization is stuck in the early nineties. Their software is simply incapable of solving for the max profit or max revenue model. That's why hidden stop is still a thing.

The answers focusing on hidden city ticketing are just nonsense. Airlines have much better tools for dealing with that, they can just ban you afterwards.

Airlines will resell your return ticket if you neglect contacting them after missing your first flight.

If you contact them, they will not sell your return ticket. There's also a good chance that they'll switch the first flight you missed for free or at least significantly less than the cost of a new ticket.

Which airline? Did a staff member assist you in rescheduling your missed flight? I’ve never been told to ignore my missed flight and rebook a new one-way separately. Any flights I’ve been late for, the airline rebooked me for a later flight on the same reservation without any additional fees.

I’ve only had to do this once and if I recall it was just a change fee or go on standby and wait overnight. Key is talking to them.

Same thing happened to me only I got stranded at the airport Fuzhou, hours from my relatives and with no means to buy a ticket. If they had at least notified me of the cancellation I could have scheduled a flight in advance.

Don't fly China Southern.

Given that most (all?) airlines do the same thing, how is "Don't fly China Southern" going to help?

(BTW I've flown China Southern many times, both domestically and internationally. I've not found them to be any worse than other airlines.)

I believe the main reason for this is to prevent people from getting cheaper tickets for short trips by making two separate reservations.

Some airlines charge higher prices if you spend only night or two in destination (probably because these are usually business trips and business people have money). So back in the days you actually booked separate return trips to the destination and only used one part of each trip.

The trouble is that airlines want to sell the same product with many prices. Get maximum price from business traveler, while still competing also for the price conscious holiday traveler.

>I believe the main reason for this is to prevent people from getting cheaper tickets for short trips by making two separate reservations.

That's a thing but it's probably not the reason for this.

The main reason for this is that you have to do something weird to end up in this situation, if you miss your first flight you'd normally contact your airline.

If you miss your first flight and say nothing to the airline, then they might rather reasonably assume that you aren't gonna show up for the return leg.

Same thing happened to me. I luckily checked the night before. I was as furious as I'm sure you were.

This has been standard across airlines for more than a decade. It's to prevent people from taking advantage of cheaper legs that comprise a multi-leg trip.

A similar thing happen to me but on a multi-leg flight and they allowed me to board. I was told that if I was going to miss an outgoing flight, and wanted to use the return, then contact them in advance and the forfeit wouldn’t happen.

Based upon my experiences as a business traveller, it has been like this over 15 years.

There’s an informal flat-tire rule to help travelers if they miss their flight but still show up at the airport within a reasonable time, but passengers who skip a flight entirely will find their entire ticket cancelled. The specific rule is that flight coupons must be used in order.

This has been going on for years, I had a worse experience. I book my christmas flights super early and had to change the outgoing flight. Found a reasonable flight on a different airline, so all i wanted to do is cancel the outgoing portion of the flight. Having been burned by a similar experience to yours in the past, so knew I had to call the airline. Website says its not possible so I call them up. Apparently they cant cancel half the flight, they have to cancel and rebook, minus change fee, plus the difference in fare - insane due to it now being close to christmas. I ended up paying money to cancel half of my flight.

Happened to me once as well.

Apparently this is illegal in EU, but you'll have to fight to get your money back.

I have a relative who moved to the US a couple of years ago. A one-way ticket costed _more_ than a round-trip, so he and his family bought roundtrip tickets. They flew normally but obviously never caught the flight back.

The airline later cancelled his platinum frequent flying status and charged him with the difference threatening to sue for fraud.

EDIT: typo

There is a website for that https://skiplagged.com

why would an airline care if the passengers caught their flight or not? The tickets are already paid for.

Because (in their eyes), you're gaming their fare rules. That said, I don't know how common this sort of action is. At various times, I've had to change flight plans and it was cheaper just to burn a booked return leg than pay the cancelation fee. And I've never had an issue doing so.

Did you relative notify the company that they wanted to cancel their return flight? I don't think the airline could have complained in that case.

The flight reservation has changed if you're a no show for the first flight. They want a change fee. So if you don't give them a change fee, they basically apply a punitive "ok fine the whole ticket is cancelled and we keep your money".

I think it's theft also.

>The airline may have a clause somewhere on their website explaining that the above is to be expected. That doesn’t make it square for me. The behavior of the airline was, IMO, unethical.

Says everyone in every scenario where they run up against terms of services they agreed to but didn't read. I understand the sentiment, human beings don't like their assumptions being completed destroyed by reality.

And fyi, your situation would have occurred ages ago, as airlines have been canceling unused itineraries for years to prevent fare hacking, among other things.

>However, I shouldn’t have to do so or risk finding myself stranded away from home.

Because the airline should be omnipotent as to why you missed your flight and accommodate you correctly as to your uncommunicated intentions?

Southwest Airlines does not play these games (the first 2 checked bags are free and canceling your ticket before the flight gives you a voucher for the full fare you paid to use in the future). It also does not have fares listed with the airline ticket search sites. They usually have good fares, decent service, and on time flights. I try and fly them when ever I can get a direct flight with them.

I understand why they keep growing and wish other airlines would try their style. I try to choose companies with friendly business practices, even if it costs a bit more sometimes.

Isn't Southwest the one that just launched obligatory in-air concerts? https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-wro...

I think I'll give that a miss.

I imagine Southwest will give this a miss also. Seems like a Nashville one-off. Never seen it myself.

Unfortunately not just a one-off: http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-airlines-t...

If they want to make flying more fun, they should start by not treating everyone like a piece of meat during security screening beforehand.

Unfortunately, they don't really have control over that. I'm sure every airline would love to decrease the hassle of flying - it would be great for business.

Southwest Airlines is also fatality free (on their planes).

No fees for changes either, other than the fare difference.

It's worth noting that in my observation their fares jump in price as the flight approaches to a higher degree than some other airlines, though not too much higher, and I still prefer this to change fees.

The new "basic economy" fares are the ones that piss me off.

For ~16 months, I've been taking the same handful of United flights between the same locations every few weeks. When they launched "basic economy" they insisted that they would just lower the price for people who didn't care about having a carry on, assigned seats, etc.

Not surprisingly, the basic economy fare is what I was paying before and to get all the "perks" like having a carry on, assigned seating or even having the miles count towards status, it's an extra $20-30 each way.

They f*d us nicely there.

This drives me nuts - not only is it more money, but it seems that most of the people with Economy-- tickets don't realize it and get into fights with the gate agents. It's amazing how effective it is for turning all of the people in the airport against each other.

We hit a nice little trap while booking our tickets for Christmas (Copenhagen to Stuttgart). The outgoing flight was Lufthansa "Economy Basic", which includes checked luggage. But the return flight was "Economy Light", which doesn't include checked luggage.

Since we would actually like to take our bags home with us, it effectively added a hidden fee on top of the original price, just so it would show as "luggage included" in the aggregator.

But you surely saw that when you booked? Did you book over some shady website? Lufthansa.com would've definitely warned you before you booked.

We booked through Google Flights, which only pointed out that checked luggage may incur extra fees. We only spotted the difference on the return flight when we actually went to Lufthansa's site to check that everything was in order.

Both flights were shown as "economy" on Google Flights.

You can't book through Google Flights, it's just a search engine.

Everything was handled though Google Flights, only the final payment page was Lufthansa. On that page, information about checked luggage was not available, only the ticket type in very small print. We had to manually look up what each different ticket type meant, and manually select additional luggage for the return flight, based on information we gleaned from a completely separate Google search.

Trust me on this, I went through it only yesterday. Online flight booking is one huge dark pattern.

Right, so you booked the flights through Luftansa, not Google Flights. Google Flights helped you search for the flights you wanted, but then linked you to Luftansa's page to actually book them.

Google Flights labeled the flights as simply "economy", strongly giving the impression that both flights were on the same class of ticket, instead of providing a very important detail, namely that the return ticket was a lower class.

This is very important information when booking a flight, to give your customers the correct price, and they got it wrong.

If you think Google saw you as the "customer" in that exchange, you're very mistaken...

The problem with GOOG in a nutshell.

Same thing happened to Brazilian carriers in general.

Law stated that every domestic flight fare within Brazil must include a 23kg checked bag, every international flight fare into and out of Brazil must include two(!!) 32kg checked bags.

Then the law changed and no more checked bag minimums, people cheered and airline promised lower fares, lo and behold, no more checked bags at domestic and one 23kg piece at international flights, but the prices have only gone up.

Travelled in the US earlier this year on 3 regional carriers. I realise this is only an anecdote, but I was surprised by a number of things:

- tickets stated as direct included a hidden stop and change of plane.

- there was an extra charge for a checked bag.

- the checked bag was promptly lost on my first flight and returned to me after 5 days.

- on one united flight, we had to wait on the tarmac for 1hr45 min while a guy sat each wing of the plane in turn refuelling it with a gas-pump style hose through a port on the wing. This was because the central rapid-fuelling system on the plane was broken.

- interior of aircraft was shabby. In one plane they had retrofitted LED lighting in the cabin, but it was too narrow and so exposed hull insulation and other structures in the gap.

- seats felt much closer together than usual. What on earth do you do if you're above average height in the US?

- price! Unbelievably expensive to fly between cities in the US. In SE Asia or Europe I have travelled between similar sized cities and similar distances for well under half the price in the US and at shorter notice.

What ever the airlines may tell you in the US, from the perspective of an outsider, I'm pretty sure they're ripping you off!

Edit: formatting

Regional domestic travel in the US is shit — it’s not particularly profitable, and ends up with many monopolies. Flying between major cities/hubs is generally comfortable and efficient, albeit a hair expensive, but trying to go anywhere small is problematic.

What makes the PR situation around this worse is a lot of once-a-year flyers traveling to see family for Christmas (or weddings or funerals) have this as their flying experience. This is both subject to delays (because winter, and specific circled dates on a calendar) and often is when the system is running near full capacity. Thus, air travel as most people experience it is very different from air travel as experienced on most trips — the denominator matters, but it is hard to solve.

Flying in the US usually has less service and higher prices than Europe. It's often cheaper to fly from Europe to the US than within the US. European airlines also started charging for some extras but it's nowhere near the level of the US.

Population density is likely the explanation. In Europe most people fly between major city, small cities are often connected by rail to the next airport. That keeps costs low and makes competition easier. In the US there are few direct connections with a lot of demand so that you need to provide a network, increasing barriers of entrance.

The prices are because of the recent big airline mergers (Alaska/Virgin America 2016, US Air/American '13, United/Continental '10, Delta/Northwest '09) [1].

United does its heavy maintenance in Beijing, China [2], so some maintenance issues are inevitable. I find it amazing that their planes even fly, it must be a huge logistical hassle.

[1] http://airlines.org/dataset/u-s-airline-mergers-and-acquisit...

[2] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance...

(When this Vanity Fair article was written, 2015, American still did major maintenance in the US, but apparently not for much longer: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/08/25/american-airli... )

remembers me of what I once read in a frequent flyer forum:

„What is the best US carrier? - Lufthansa“

How is a hidden stop possible? Wouldn't you be able to look at total flight times and see that it's estimated to take an extra 45+ minutes on that flight than other direct flights?

Airlines (in the US, mostly) are incentivized to add these fees for two major reasons:

1. Fees are exempt from the 7.5% federal excise tax on airfare. 2. It makes the initial fare lower on airfare sites like Kayak, for people who choose the cheapest route, then they up-sell customers once they've decided.

Every so often a flight aggregator (Kayak, Expedia, etc.) shows up. To date precisely none of them have solved the REAL customer pain point: show the actual price I will pay.

I really wish restaurants and everywhere else would include taxes in their prices too. I frankly don't care what fraction of my money is going to the government, all I care is (a) what I pay in total and (b) what I'm getting.

The real trick with an aggregator would be to say what you want (e.g. I want a carry-on bag, but I don't care where I sit or about in-flight food) and it spits out a list of total-cost airfares with those features. It would probably still skew towards the low-cost carriers where everything is a la carte, but at least people wouldn't be surprised by the total cost.

ITA's Matrix[1] shows the actual price, but rumours are that Google will shut them down in the near future in favour of Google Flights following their shutdown of the QPX Express API[2]

[1] http://matrix.itasoftware.com/

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15594975

Those two have nothing to do with each other. Someone in that thread purely speculated and now there are 'rumors'.

You're right, I was completely unaware of that. I read these 'rumours' on other forums as well, but I didn't bother to verify them.

"I really wish restaurants and everywhere else would include taxes in their prices too."

Easy. Move to the UK, or China, or Germany, or ...

EU mandates to show real price (including taxes)[0][1]. From my personal experience, it works with all major EU-based airlines when booking online. Of course, if you want extra (travel insurance, priority, luggage etc.) you pay separately (opt-in), but it's nothing like it was ~10 years ago when you had to play hide&seek with all these hidden taxes and opt-out extras during the booking process.

0. https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2015/january/flight-book...

1. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pric...

Yes, this is one space where regulation has really helped, even if sometimes you still find that the actual price is a bit different from the one you expected.

> Fees are exempt from the 7.5% federal excise tax on airfare

Ah, just like pre... 2014? Ebay, where S&H fees were exempt from final value fees. I recall selling games for 1 cent, buy it now, but with $5 shipping, so my listing would be practically free. Ebay has smarted up in a lot of ways. One day the feds will too.

Then buyers would get angry, but really, it was to cut-out Ebay, not confuse them. I would even put the shipping cost in the title to be absolutely clear.

I find high undisclosed taxes on rental cars and hidden resort fees at hotels much more unfriendly to consumers than airline fees.

Absolutely! When buying an air ticket, at least on the checkout page I see the final price I'm paying.

On the contrary, when renting a car a couple of years ago I had following situation - I booked a car and paid, then I arrived at the airport, and at the counter I was told:

* 5EUR/day more because I'm below 25yo

* 5EUR/day more because it's a diesel car ("so I don't want diesel" - "but we have only diesel")

* gas policy is full/empty, so I have to pay for gas in advance; I check the contract and it says I have to pay "market rate", I check online and market rate is 20% less than what they want me to pay, I say this is not market rate, they say it includes surcharge for fueling the car.

In the end I didn't have much choice and rented the car, but the experience was much worse than buying air tickets.

Fees in general for rental cars are awful. In the US at least there are also all sorts of taxes, concession fees, high hourly fees if you return at a bit later time than you picked up, etc. It can all add up to 30% or more of the total price so you need to make sure you're comparing apples-to-apples when you make a reservation.

On the plus side, most rental cars don't charge for canceling or missing a reservation, returning early, or just not showing up--so there's that.

If you reserve (just book, no need to pay in advance) a popular class of vehicle in advance the pick-up location will often not have one available so you get a free upgrade to whichever superior class they do have ready. Also, look for 'off-airport' locations because these do not assess an airport surcharge fee. Off-airport locations are even less likely to have popular classes in stock. Doesn't matter if you just flew in, (remove your airline luggage tags, try not to be obvious) take a taxi to the location. It will frequently be cheaper this way. Off-airport locations are often near airports.

As an American living in Europe, I found that some US insurers will issue a 'driver only' policy that covers you while driving rentals in the USA on your European license. I'm paying $24/year for mine which has generous limits and is much cheaper than the coverage rental agencies offer.

Also slightly unrelated but don't dare call British Airways to enquire about changing your flight or you will not be able to check in online and you will get the worst seats when you show up for your flight. This is true even if you make no changes, your booking is put in to some kind of frozen state and the phone agents are unable to reverse this. You must visit the BA desk at an airport in person to have this corrected. Bizarre, but this was confirmed by multiple people at BA who I spoke to after having it happen to me.

Off-airport rentals are a good tip to save some money. I confess I very rarely do it because it's one more hassle after a long flight. The one thing you need to be careful of is hours as off-airport rental companies often operate on more conventional business hours.

IME it was better getting a rental car with the more reputable players(Hertz, Avis, Europcar), I once was looking at rentalcars.com and the smaller companies had significantly cheaper prices which inclined me to go with them but they were full of gotchas and when you reached the place(bullshit key fees, security deposit going up to 10x higher than the security deposit of the big ones).

As for gas policy whenever I rented a car it was full/full.

Hostels too, I've seen some charge for(and not fully disclosed at the time of booking):

- Bed sheets

- key deposits

- shower access

- locker usage

As someone who literally _just_ ranted on Twitter (and on their 1990s style, "/start.tk" issue website) that Turkish Airlines has never once replied to my messages after losing my bag on the 26th of October: I wish there were a central, democratic review system for airlines, outing them for all their faults. Paying for checked in bags is not fun if the bag doesn't arrive. Fighting for (soon) two weeks to get back what is yours is no fun either.

Any public outrage about airline practices gets my upvote..

(I understand that for certain routes you cannot really choose someone else..)

http://www.airlinequality.com/

The economy (or even "premium") customer service on most of my recent flights has been awful. In most other U.S. service industries (restaurants, bars, etc), the staff is incentivized to serve you and increase sales and get tips. I've been on many 3-5HR flights where you see a flight attendant at most twice, and the attendants seem almost required to do the least. It comes across as if the airline firms are trying to make things as uncomfortable as possible to upsell to first/business.

Flight attendants aren't really there for service. Their primarily responsibility is supposed to be safety. Serving snacks is just a courtesy. You can always bring your own, or walk to the galley and ask for something.

They are paid to do both. The customer service side isn't optional.

https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-TX-7...

They are primarily there for safety, and had they not historically been required for safety (early cabin crew members were nurses), but they absolutely have service duties.

How many times do you need to see a stewardess on a 3 to 5 hour flight though? What do you need from them during that time? I'm not sure what you're expecting from them.

Need? I don't need to see them at all. But business/first class products are sold as luxury, and have more staff per passenger than non-premium cabins -- it's not entirely unreasonable to expect them to pass through on a regular basis and offer to have your drink or coffee refreshed. Generally this has absolutely been the case when I've flown in premium cabins.

Yeah it makes sense in premium cabins, but in economy I'm not sure why they bother with food or drinks on such short flights at all really. I'd rather they left us alone as there's no enough space to serve food properly and these aren't long flights. They just get in the way of people who need the bathroom.

We’re in a golden age of flying for both airlines and passengers. If you want 1960s style service, first class tickets are cheaper today than the cheapest tickets were back then.

The reason airlines nickel and dime is Americans’ preference for cheaper tickets over almost anything else. The bulk of the remaining demand comes from frequent fliers, who are exempted from most fees, or business travellers, who are too profitable to risk pissing off.

The itemization of services isn't the problem. It is the hiding of the fees that is the problem. What they are doing now is essentially a bait-and-switch.

They should (and should be legally mandated to) be upfront about what they are going to charge you for, include that information prominently when advertising tickets and make the fee information available to third-parties so that ticket shopping sites can offer an accurate comparison of what your total cost will be.

I sometimes fantasize about having one of these companies as a client and billing them with fees mirroring the ones they charge i.e. add a fee for “mandated federal and state taxes” (my income taxes), maybe an “internet surcharge” and of course a “fuel surcharge”. My biggest expense next year will be insurance so I’ll definately add an “insurance fee” that in there as well. I’m getting giddy just thinking about it...

In recent years, the only decent experiences I've had flying have been with JetBlue, European national carriers, and WOW.

JetBlue and the European carriers still offer decent service and don't nickel and dime everything. They let you check a bag or two. The gate and flight staff are competent and relatively efficient. The aircraft are clean, well-maintained, and modern. The European carriers even feed you. It's almost as good as flying was before 2000.

WOW is a cut-rate airline, and they're upfront about it.

The other major carriers are a dumpster fire. I won't even try to fly United or American or Delta anymore.

JetBlue is definitely one of the better US carriers for those who don't have status. (I typically fly United but I have relatively high status on them.)

But JetBlue has adopted a lot of the fee structures of the legacy carriers. They do charge extra for checked luggage now. They have pay for more legroom seats (although their regular seat pitch isn't bad by economy standards). They have pay for early boarding. Their change fees have gone up.

I guess this is also a way for airlines to devalue their frequent-flyer points programs: the bag is no longer included.

Or, in the case of a Canadian airline, Westjet, you get a free checked bag when you have their premium credit card.

That's the same with the United and Chase Milage cards (club and explorer)

Frequent flyers don’t pay bag fees. Airline status comps those fees.

"Airlines" don't collectively do anything. Most airlines' medium tier status and up generally entitles members to some extra baggage allowance, but eg. British Airways basic economy has no baggage allowance, including for status holders.

Unless you're going away for two weeks or more, cabin luggage really should be all you need. Pack smart and pack light, think long and hard about which clothes you're actually going to need. If you're bringing bulky items of clothing (such as hiking boots), wear them on the plane. Don't bring a bunch of extra stuff "just in case", odds are you'll be able to buy whatever it is at your destination.

Most airlines allow 55x40x20cm(-ish) size cabin luggage, plus a so-called personal item, which can be as big as 40x30x15cm on some airlines, or described as a purse, a handbag or a slim laptop bag. Sometimes the weight is included in the cabin luggage allowance, sometimes it's not, so you have to check the terms for each airline. This will let you bring a bit of extra luggage, or at least make sure your laptop isn't taking up a bunch of space in your cabin luggage.

This may seem like a bunch of needless extra work when packing, for saving a small fee, but it also means you won't have to waste time at the luggage carousel, and it will be much less hassle if you have to go by taxi or public transport. And of course your luggage won't be at the mercy of underpaid and possibly careless luggage workers.

Pack smart, avoid fees and hassle.

When weight is a concern, try not using the carry on bags with wheels. Those bags themselves weigh about 6-7 lbs and the telescopic handle takes up space inside the bag. I use the Amazon basics carryon or the more expensive Patagonia MLC 45L both of which which weigh less than 2.2 lbs and are a breeze to carry on. It's amazing how much space and time (it's much faster to walk with these carry on's) you save when you use these. Oh and these provide O(1) access as they fold like a suitcase and not like a hiking bag which in my view has a best case o(n) access and worst case o(n^n) access.

I've lucked out with my carry-on bag, it's only 1.8kg (3.9lbs) despite the wheels, and the handle doesn't intrude too much.

The wheels on two-wheeled models don't intrude very much, I would definitely avoid the 4-wheeled models, you lose so much space to those caster wheels.

I thought about getting a backpack, but my back gets sweaty within a few minutes of walking with it.

I see Patagonia has redone the way the bag opens up and loads. Looks like a big improvement although I still prefer bags that are basically one big compartment; I just use my own organizers which are more versatile.

To your basic point, fully agree. I expect that at least some of the carryon issues are the result of business travelers taking rollaboards for one-night trips. Like you, I find soft over the shoulder/backpack bags a lot more versatile as well as being more space efficient. Yes, some people can't easily carry the weight but that describes a small portion of travelers.

I used a soft messenger-style bag for a long time, but in the end I simply got fed up with how annoying it was to pack, and how much care I had to take when packing, in order to avoid discomfort when carrying it.

The older Patagonia was very vertically oriented with a compartment divider down the middle. I liked it until I decided it just didn't accommodate bulky items well and wasn't easy to dig things out of. These days I mostly use an Osprey travel backpack which unzips to a single big compartment and that works pretty well for me.

I do have rollers on a couple larger pieces of checked luggage but I only use those a couple times a year.

I've switched to traveling with an Osprey backpack and will likely never go back to roller bags. I pack very light, even for weeks of traveling, though.

> I use the Amazon basics carryon

Which one? This sounds like good advice, but I just did a quick search [0], and in the first several results saw only hard-sided spinners and a backpack.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=Amazon+Basics+carry+...

People doing this really annoy me, especially as it's often half the flight trying to avoid paying for a checked bag.

I'd like to get on the plane, put my small backpack out of the way in the overhead storage, and depart.

Instead, we'll spend 15 minutes with people trying to cram their huge bags into insufficient space, and my reward for waiting until my row was called for boarding is to have my backpack jammed between my feet.

On short routes with good transport connections at either end (for me, London to Copenhagen) it's the biggest difference in experience between e.g. EasyJet and BA.

If people are having trouble putting their carry-on bags in the overhead storage, the bags are either too big or too heavy, or both. They should have been spotted by the crew and told to gate check their bags and probably pay an over-size fee.

If people would actually respect the size and weight limits, and realize that you can also put bags underneath the seat in front, it wouldn't be an issue.

This is an area where people can easily disagree.

Could I pack light enough for a 1-2 week trip so that I don't need to check a bag? Sure. But you know what? I don't want to be washing clothes in the hotel sink, or sending my laundry out, or go around wearing more and more deodorant to try and avoid smelling.

My carry-on is a backpack with stuff I either plan on using on the plane, or my electronics which I'm not going to check. And I'm not going to stick my bag under the seat just so that someone else can try and force a huge bag into the bin.

Personally, I prefer not to deal with the luggage carousel and/or luggage that mysteriously vanishes on the way to my destination.

>force a huge bag into the bin.

In which case that person should have been asked by the crew to check their bag, if it was indeed oversize or overweight.

> Most airlines allow 55x40x20cm(-ish) size cabin luggage, plus a so-called personal item, which can be as big as 40x30x15cm on some airlines, or described as a purse, a handbag or a slim laptop bag.

I take it you haven't flown on any of the major US domestic carriers in the past few months? With the new 'Economy Basic' fares, you only get a personal item. Carry-on bags are now an upsell.

I've been lucky enough to avoid traveling by US domestic flights, because similarly to what you say, they sound like a major shit show. So I don't have personal experience in that area, although my girlfriend was in SF for a conference earlier this year, and she said it was reasonably pleasant (on United, even).

I was referring to European and international flights, which I do have experience with.

Charging for carry-on is real shitty. At some point it will be cheaper and easier to simply have your luggage shipped to your destination instead of carrying it with you.

I work remotely in NY for a team in Virginia near DC. I make it a point to take Amtrak because of the carryon limits. Of course there's other perks, e.g. no TSA, less people, more seat room.

At the end of the day I'm technically not paying for it (thanks corporate card), so it's a little easier for me to exercise my preferences, but if you book at the right time and trains are a possibility you can get reasonable prices.

Unfortunately, if I were to choose the train, it would be a 12-hour trip to Stuttgart, at the very minimum. By plane it's 1 hour 30 minutes (figure 2 hours 30 minutes including check-in and luggage).

I'm not really the type of person to enjoy that long of a train ride.

That's a very niche advice. You can use the same reasoning to book hostels vs hotels -- it's ok if a bed and shared bathroom is all you need, but it doesn't always work.

Being critical about considering what you need and what you don't need when traveling is "niche advice"?

Sure, don't book a hostel or inexpensive low-frills hostel if you want to go on a resort vacation. But for the vast majority of people, a hotel room is where they sleep, shower and dress. Everything interesting happens elsewhere.

I think you'll find that a heck of a lot more travelers on a given plane only have carry-on than are planning to stay in a hostel.

So, what does a carry-on bag really cost an airline anyway?

Is it reasonable to discourage it because the airline needs to pay the airports for each bag and the ability to carry non-passenger cargo is reduced that much?

The airlines cost are based on weight, as that determines the fuel use for the flight (not including in-flight variances that would also contribute to fuel costs).

Not sure why I my question was just about carry-ons...

For checked bags, what do the departing and arriving airports charge the airline per-bag for handling?

If allowing carry-ons delays boarding by just 5 minutes on average, I imagine the cost to airlines is fairly high.

I was once charged a ticket purchasing fee! This was not an online free, it would have been charged no matter how I purchased the ticket

Easyjet in the UK now have a mandatory £15 'administration fee' for each booking. There's no way around it.

It would be less galling if they just called it 'Minimum Fare'.

Plus they add a 1% credit card charge!

The credit card charge I don't mind so much. Budget airlines are understandably concerned about margins, and the 1% they charge is lower than what I understand prevailing credit card handling commissions to be. (Assuming that there is a 1%-free debit card option, of course. If not, then that's just a 1% margin booster in the guise of something else.)

The credit card charge should disappear in January once the new law on banning credit card charges is in place :)

It's already against their merchant agreements, I have doubts the ban will do anything.

Effective Jan 27, 2013, surcharges for credit card transactions became permitted by the Visa and Mastercard merchant agreements.

Even though they have clauses on their website explaining that your ticket may be resold, it is still not fair.

Are airlines or landlords worse nowadays...?

Who checks bags anymore?

Travelers do for a variety of reasons.

Fewer and fewer people, but that's not actually a good thing. Boarding the plane takes longer, as people walk up and down aisles trying to find an overhead bin that still has space. Then, when the plane has run out of space, passenger suitcases have to be carried back off the plane and stowed underneath, where they belong anyway. Everyone gets stressed out and annoyed by the whole experience.

The airline fee structure is directly responsible for this. Spirit, for its many sins, charges less to check a bag than carry one on. As a result, there's almost always overhead bin space and boarding goes a lot quicker. The downside is that you're then dependent on airport staff to quickly unload your bags and put them on the carousel - they used to be very good at doing that quickly, but not any more.

Then, when the plane has run out of space, passenger suitcases have to be carried back off the plane and stowed underneath

Weird. I fly mostly with Ryanair and they count the bags before people enter the plane and stow away all the extras. I've never seen completely full overhead bins or bags carried off the plane to stow away.

That's not too surprising - Ryanair seems to have been created with all these ideas factored into their whole operation. US airlines have sort of grafted them on top after discovering how lucrative they can be.

Why do the airlines allow people to bring large bags into the cabin? On all airlines I travel on (mostly in Asia and Europe) the bags have to comply with a maximum size.

There isn't enough room in the overhead for every passenger to bring one relation sized carry on. Yeah some people bring to many bags, or oversized bags. But the real issue is more people day on the back rather than check it, so the overhead space fills up.

I have yet to be on a flight where there wasn't enough space for all cabin luggage, either overhead or under the seat in front.

I refuse to check any luggage, unless absolutely necessary, and my cabin bag is within regulation size for all the airlines I've checked.

Me. But I generally don't pay for them.

As a non-American who still gets a free checked bag on all non-discount carriers, me!

It's not a stupid question. I assume most business travellers avoid it. But the occasionally flying tourist-class still feels the need to pack far more than is really required for their trips.

Obligatory link to onebag.com --> A website started in 1994 helping people bring everything on a carry-on bag.

It's amazing how much it's actually possible to optimize luggage packing, without going to ridiculous extremes.

"But what if I want to wear this shirt, maybe?" seems to be a very common question, but I guess people just need to learn to decide.

So long as the rules of carry-on are harder to obey than the rules of checked bags, I will prefer to check a bag. It's not the size of the checked bag, I generally check the bag I used to carry on before 9/11.

Ah, the 9/11 tax. I used to be able to carry spare razor blades, shaving cream, and toothpaste. Now I feel extremely safe buying disposable razors and overpriced tiny tubes of toothpaste. The terrorists have won.

I refuse to travel with checked bags unless it's absolutely necessary. My suitcase bears heavy scars from rough handling, and considering how underpaid and overworked luggage haulers are, I don't really trust that to become less of a problem in the future.

Anyone

- going on a 3+ day vacation

- having something unwieldy to transport

- going on a 3+ day business trip that needs shirts, fancy pants and shoes (or a suit)

For me, carry-on is for a bag with my electronics (laptop, Kindle, headphones) and necessities for the flight if any. Being able to travel with nothing but a carry-on bag is a luxury and quite rare for me.

Agreed. I know it takes time to wait and get my bag, but especially if I'll have a multi-hour layover in an airport, the last thing I want is to be lugging a heavy bag around! I keep my carry-on as light as possible.

There's a weight limit for carry-on, generally somewhere between 7 and 10kg. Don't see it as a limitation, see it as a challenge to optimize your packing.

How much clothing do you seriously need for a 3-day vacation? Anything less than a week is firmly in carry-on only territory, even with a few shirts, an extra pair of pants and a spare pair of shoes.

For longer trips (especially business trips), it's very likely you're going to be staying in a place with a good laundry service.

It really pays off to optimize packing a bit (for instance rolling instead of folding, and to simply take a long hard look at what you actually need, all in the name of avoiding checked luggage hassles.

You laptop and other flight essentials can go in your "personal item", which is generally specified as a handbag or slim laptop bag. Most airlines don't advertise that you're allowed to take an additional personal item, but take a look at how many handbags and so on are allowed in addition to cabin luggage, the next time you travel.

Most people really don't need to though. I just got back from a 2 1/2 week trip with just (fully compliant) carryon. Yes, once you get into suits (or a lot of recreational/camera/etc. gear) it gets harder, but I suspect most people could packa lot lighter.

I saw people repacking bags at Copenhagen airport the last time I went to Germany (start of September), so they could fit everything while still barely scraping in below the weight limit. Multiple heavy jackets and winter boots. For southern Germany in the late summer. It was 30 degrees C in Stuttgart when we landed. Some people...

To be fair, you don't know when they left, or how long they were gone.

No, of course not. To my untrained eye, they looked like tourists.

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