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Comment by raverbashing | Hacker News Reader

I'm glad Linus has this attitude and it is unfortunate it's not present in some other places

Though it is annoying if you're at the receiving end of it, own up (the opposite of what the patch author was doing)

He can afford to be politically incorrect because he makes all the decision, and because nobody else than him can make decisions. He is the expert.

There are very few places in software where an expert/engineer have full authority on the development/how things are done/specifications. You often see money/markets/trends take over.

I really wonder what linux will become without Torvalds when he will go away. I hope he already thought about it, because it will really require somebody with huge confidence about what to do.

Most of his current generals are very much the confident type (occasionally even too much so), so I don’t really see a problem there. As long as Linus doesn’t anoint a RedHat employee, things will just keep chugging along.

There are a few that even though they are not RH employees, are very close to RH employees to the point that they would likely look the other way rather than confront like Linus would do.

Annoying and hurtful, yes, but at the same time, he's not wrong - you fucked up, you did bad and you should feel bad. The upside of this rant too is that the author is not "fired", as such, but told to shape up or gtfo. In a lot of companies, mistakes are accepted, fixed, and forgiven without adding a bit of emotion to it. I think adding this kind of emotion will have a bigger impact and will make the receiving end do better.

How? Really? Ask that to a child beaten up by their parents in the street. I am sure that child won't make the same mistake again. I am not interested about if Linus is right or wrong, many other people have done that already. I am more interested the way that he speaks. I am gonna go ahead and say it. The way he speaks in this email is ugly, wrong, and should never be encouraged. The language we use is important, even though sometimes it takes more effort, love takes effort, good things take effort, and good communication takes effort too. We should at least try to be nice. Otherwise life would be kak.

> The way he speaks in this email is ugly, wrong

If that's the way problems get solved, then he's right in using it

If you ask nicely and people don't do it, or keep ignoring it then you up the tone

And to the people who actually help you.

Not only your users are important, people who help you are also important.

> If you ask nicely and people don't do it, or keep ignoring it then you up the tone

I am sure it can be done much better with a little effort. Being smart, or being someone who has done something important shouldn't exempt you from being nice to other people.

>Being smart, or being someone who has done something important shouldn't exempt you from being nice to other people. Absolutely. However, not being nice to someone does not mean you are wrong. One can be an asshole and still be correct, and one can have one's feelings hurt by the truth (indeed, psychologists will tell you that if it upsets you it absolutely is something you need to dig deeper on).

Equating this email to a parent beating their child is a false equivalency. Firstly, because Linus has not physically attacked the developer, and secondly, because the developer--unlike the child--should know better. This is more like Gordon Ramsay going off on a chef who has just told a customer off for not liking his burnt toast.

I agree with the first part, but not with the second part. I believe equating John's behaviour to a chef who has told a customer off is just as distant as mine.

If I was looking exact equivalent, I would just send the same link to the same email.

I am using empathy here. I don't know you guys, you may feel ok if you get shouted when you do wrong when contributing to a project, but I would feel bad, and as a human, I don't think my feelings are not important. If it is coming from an important person like Linus Torvalds, this would hurt even more, and really I don't see anything disrespectful to anyone in John's email.

I would argue that the best response to an expert telling you that you are wrong is to fix the problem. While your feelings do matter, the stability of the kernel matters more, and you cannot discount Linus's message because you think it is too emotional in tone. At the end of the day, Linus is right, Linus created the project, Linus is leading the project, and he is using strong language to inform you that he needs John to change his approach to this problem for the sake of the project.

On a slightly more pragmatic note, Linus would not be angry if John hadn't been trying to break Rule Number 1 for three weeks in a row, so an alternative solution is to simply not break the rules. Granted, if you disagree with the rules on a fundamental level, that doesn't work--so, third solution: leave and start your own project.

Amongst the emotion, Linus essentially says "I'll reject your kernel patches until you acknowledge my point (rule)". I suspect that had more to do with it than the profanity or the emotion.

Pleasantly, the patch author seems to have taken it pretty well and apologized, while Linus further explained his view with a bit less zeal. Looks like a pretty good ending all around.

There's room to talk about how much zeal is too much, but it certainly seems far better than the "silence till firing" approach people describe at some big companies.

you would want to work with someone like this? I think he comes off as a giant asshole. there's tons of ways to get your point across and be passionate about your work without treating people this way. if this email came out at any company I've worked at it would be a serious problem, HR involved immediately

no amount of skills gives you a free pass to treat people like shit. I would not want to work with anyone who has this attitude

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