Wow. Now that's how you do an apology. If anything my confidence in this guy is increased.
Yeah, this is a _very_ professional response to a (typical for Linus tbh) very emotional (but correct) post that could be easy to react emotionally to.
There are ways to use that language without being a prick about it though. Linus does not have that ability.
out of curiosity, how does a policy like this translate to microkernel OSes (e.g. Redox) where most everything runs in userspace?
https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compare...
We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.
Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...
Isn't this just swearing?
> the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel.
I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?
Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.
(if A then B) AND (if not A then not B)
That's causation, surely.
> Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation.
Why not? That's literally (if A then B) according to your definition.
And we're trying to deny that his behavior is even correlated with Linux' success?
If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.
The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone.
If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted.
While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses.
Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
> It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors.
I'll quote bits one at a time.
> It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed
What if they are? How do you handle the situation?
> and other ad-hominem angry insults
I would argue that saying some patch is worthless and cannot be fixed isn't ad-hominem.
But I'd like to get your view, since it seems you've read a lot on the topic and care about the OSS community.
(Edit: As an aside, my personal policy in this regard is temperance in my reaction, and this is especially easy when written.)
Linux is a project of such a massive scale that Linus has to accept kernel commits from circles of trust in his developer community. If someone demonstrates that they don't understand the fundamental goals of the project, and their contributions are accepted largely based on trust, then yes, their contributions are effectively worthless.
They have to be moved to a further out circle and have their work filtered up through others, and you have to second guess every piece of work that they've contributed.
I agree with you completely, but I can see how this can be accomplished, i.e. removal of trust and correction (public at that) without the need to demolish the person him/herself.
I think we can both agree that it's a fine line though.
Personally, "losing your temper" (i.e. something you have to apologize for later) is something that should be relegated to children. Adults should exhibit self-control in this regard.
You can get the "job" done without this. Some have to work harder at it than others. But saying that it's just okay to denigrate others is not correct.
I don't see this particular rant in question to be a personal attack though. Personally, I don't see a macho, jockish atmosphere to the Linux kernel community either. Also, I'm also not particularly concerned whether an environment is cultivated where anyone feels they can contribute. People contribute to the kernel out of need as well as want.
To directly address the part of the comment about otherwise capable contributors (and the Sarah Sharp example): There's multiple kinds of capability. Technical capability isn't the be-all, end-all in this industry. In fact, I think most of us would say that soft-skills are what differentiate high levels of success in this career. If a company's management culture disagrees with you, then you aren't capable of contributing in that atmosphere.
It's not a matter of either party being to blame but a matter of fit between two parties working towards a mutual goal. I don't think it's remotely fair to say that it's solely Linus's responsibility to facilitate a culture where anyone can feel comfortable contributing. Especially with a project as fundamentally necessary where people will have to contribute, regardless of the culture. If someone's incompatibility with the culture trumps their need to work in it, then yes, they should part ways and that should be perfectly okay.
The same applies to personal relationships, marriages, etc. I think it's good to step back from things from time to time and realize that, ultimately, you're dealing with people and they're not always going to value what you value and they're not always going to give you what you want.
Linus is BDFL. That's all you need to know in four letters. Why are people trying to give ultimatums to God? Seems pointless.
I feel it is imperialist for people from one culture to want people from other cultures to adhere to their way of communicating.
Culture ownership is a thing, and Linus and team were there first. Oncomers need to adapt, or go elsewhere. They certainly don't need to provide this constant distraction.
I don't think that would be a good argument to make from either perspective. If people who choose to leave the community don't contribute you can't really measure lost contribution.
That not being the crux of the issue, we should focus on the following.
Just because a product is successful does not mean that the abuse that happens during development of that product is good or okay. And I think that's really the gist of what people are saying.
It exists and is perpetuated in a culture's lex lingua precisely because it is an effective tool.
Expletives like this cut right through rational and emotional filters to trigger exactly the kind of response Linus was looking for -- after three weeks of arguing, the guy finally realized his mistake.
That's not the choice; there are other, more effective ways to produce quality code; they are well known and well tested. I would expect that Linux loses more quality code, from contributors who have better things to do than deal with unprofessional behavior, than it gains.
The evidence doesn't bear that out. I would expect more contributions from experienced developers who don't care about the words used in kernel mailing list discussions.
Acting out is actually dishonest and it's mostly about a hidden message. It's a failure to recognize and deal with your won frustrations which you then take out on others, usually when an opportunity presents itself to rationalize your behavior - someone does something you perceive as wrong, so they become a justifiable target for the anger that's already there. What I read in the email's message is, 'I'm out of control, I'm not able or willing to mange my emotions, so you better watch out'. That is a poor management and communication technique.
IMHO, a leader or manager should hold their leadership and management work product to the same standard that they hold their subordinates' technical work product. If they want the highest standards for the kernel code, they need to have the highest standards for their communication and other conduct.
A great challenge of being the boss is that there is nobody to hold you to high standards; you have to do it yourself and that's not something people are good at. As they say: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Clearly, this message could have been communicated much more effectively - while being truly honest and without hidden messages or room for interpretation - if the communicator chose to make an effort.
Finally, if this form of communication is effective, do others communicate to Linus in this manner? Does he ask them to?
- Speaks in platitudes about the topic in a way that shows a thin understanding of the context and only sounds smart to people that also aren't familiar with the context.
- Armchair psychiatry used to advance a moralizing message.
- All over the place while deep in a comment thread, seemingly more interested in hearing themselves talk than carrying on the conversation.
I considered those things myself before I posted it. However, I didn't see how to overcome them; some issues don't lend themselves to strong factual bases, and some are much more nuanced than can be addressed in a few words - issues such as leadership - and yet they still are important enough to discuss. The problems of the world don't always conveniently fit our model of how we prefer to address them. How else could these issues be addressed?
> It's a cliche hacker news comment
This I strongly disagree with; these issues are rarely addressed with much serious thought and that's one reason I posted it.
I couldn't agree more.
More than ten years ago I was involved in the Monotone project. It was a VCS which was an ancestor to Git and a contemporary of Mercurial.
That project really prioritised good conduct, and having a well functioning community. It was a huge awakening for me. Insisting, gently, upon respectful and kind behaviour made it a project I'm proud to have been a part of.
I'm still grateful to graydon, pcwalton and all the other folks that made it such a great project to be involved with. In free software we need more leaders like that, who set the right example.
Respect and kindness are great virtues when you're shipping widgets. If your product failing means that end-users are going to physically suffer and/or die, I don't think they're going to care one bit about those virtues or respond in kind though.
I'm not saying you can't run a big project without kindness and respect, but I'm saying that's way down the list of importance vs not harming your users. Whatever it takes to get that chief goal accomplished needs to be done. Linus' approach has clearly been working for decades now...and it especially is in this instance.
Linus is still a dick and it isn't funny, refreshing or cool.
If this was some Joe Schmo at a random company he'd be fired for treating co-workers like that. Since it's Linus it's hero worship.
There's a thicker-than-fine line between being hostile to new contributors and being unkind, and tolerating bad practices from people who ought to know better.
And behavior can be changed.
If someone criticized your code, taking it as a personal attack is YOUR problem. If your behavior is criticized, it means you can improve: acting like a fool may not mean you're a fool. It's on you to disprove it.
And he only responded this way after 3 weeks of unacceptable behavior. If he blew up out of nowhere after the very first report of a potential problem before it was even confirmed, that would be a different story (though that's something that probably happens in real companies every day).
I think you must have worked for some horribly unprofessional companies. I've worked places with tight deadlines before, but berating your colleagues or employees with profanity is just ridiculous. I would walk out on the spot if anyone spoke to me the way Linus did in that email.
I have for sure, but the worst of those companies was better than fortune 5 (if I said exactly, you'd know which company), so while primitive they obviously manage to get results that coddling hasn't.
EDIT: And as for walking out, if I were your manager and you broke customer systems and made excuses for 3 weeks about it I wouldn't be yelling at you. I'd be firing you.
The problem was fixed; nobody was harmed; lessons were learned. The sum total of effect of this "Linus tirade" seems overwhelmingly positive. But just because he didn't conform to your arbitrary standards, you write him off?
Linus is more humanist in this case than your policy apparently allows.
You stupid, mouthbreathing motherfucker. How can you sit there and say "nobody was harmed"? I was harmed by having to read that word-vomit, and I've been further harmed having to respond to your boundless idiocy. You have no idea how many people have been put off working on open source projects because they'd rather contribute nothing than have to interact with human shitstains like yourself or Linus.
How's this for a positive comment? Jesus Christ I hope I never have to work alongside a worthless rat bastard like you. Your family should be ashamed to have raised such a sack of shit.
[Look how clear and direct I've been! Isn't it great!]
I'm trying to highlight that maybe it's not so great if you're on the receiving end of it.
I'm sure a bunch of hypocrites will flag me down, though.
A major difference between your comment here and Linus' rant is that Linus didn't deliver personal attacks. Notice how all his vitriol is aimed at the code and not the person:
"Stop gthis (sic) fcking idiocy", not "You are an idiot"
"You trying to shift regressions somewhere else is bogus SHT", not "You are bogus sh*t"
Your comment on the other hand is mainly full of empty name-calling. Besides the fact that it accomplishes nothing, it's a personal attack instead of a clear message that "XYZ behaviour is Bad!"
That said, you are indeed indirectly evidencing that a good many people have trouble seeing a difference.
This is the Sphinx asking you an easy question, and if you don't simply give the correct answer she helpfully provided in advance, you get burned to ash. You don't get to stand there arguing, and you certainly don't pass through. Instead complaining about it while someone is still doing it, learn to become so principled where it matters for the time when he can't do it anymore. That's infinitely more important than not swearing if you're older than 6. Have you looked around the world you're living in? Plenty of nuts people with plenty of vested interests. Plenty of weak people feeding them. If "not hurting feelings" is a priority to you, you are a hostage to those who will fake feelings until the cows come home. In turn you do not get to hold those hostage who see through it.
How much of what people use, how much profit does Linux enable? But oh no, the bad man is swearing. Unbelievable. Uninstall everything that has traces of it in it, but spare me your advice on what I need to "stop excusing". There is no aggregate by the way, "we" doesn't have to agree with anything because it doesn't exist. I have my stance, you don't even propose yours.
We tend to excuse people for being bratty assholes when they're smart and correct. Which Linus was here.
Doesn't make it right but it's not just a Linus problem (I mean, generally), it's a people problem.
> trying to shift the regressions somewhere else is bogus SHIT.
That's accurate and specifically points to the unacceptable behavior that needs to be fixed. Linus's "WE DON'T BREAK USERSPACE. EVER." policy is well known, documented, and mentioned frequently. It's reasonable to expect anyone submitting patches to understand this, which makes trying to shift the blame elsewhere... well... "bogus SHIT", regardless of the specific words you use to describe it.
> I will stop pulling apparmor requests until the people involved understand how kernel development is done.
Note that Linus is specifically indicating that this is fixable. Given John Johansen's very commendable apology (see link in grandparent comment), it looks like the message was understood. I suspect this will work out much better in the future.
--
edit: Diluting language to make it "nicer" can remove important information. See: "How a plan becomes policy" https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html
The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training like Crucial Conversations: https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ ) is to be "persuasive, not abrasive" as that site says. The issue with being abrasive is that one way people might react is by instinctively attacking back -- no matter how technically correct you are, f-bombs and personal attacks might tempt others to throw counterpoint f-bombs and personal attacks back. Another is that repeated behavior along these lines might drive away some people who would rather not see profanity and anger in their mailbox.
Everyone loses their temper occasionally, and John Johansen reacted in the way you should to someone who loses their temper.
Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive.
Except that it is still being used unlike the other "nice" projects. BeOS. For example.
What I know is that I've never read advice geared for managers which states that the route to success comes from being an abrasive boss.
I don't see how this is a personal attack. I call the quoted comment a plainly-stated critique of a developer's portfolio. If you have repeatedly demonstrated a problem following basic requirements (ref: "denying the regression now for three weeks"), that's a good reason to presume problems might exist (i.e. "your code cannot be relied upon"). Linus tends to write this type of "blunt" letter only after other ("nicer") attempts have repeatedly failed, and a pattern of problematic behavior exists.
Accurately describing someone's reputation based on their actual work and behavior is not a personal attack. Without false claims - aka actual slander or libel - you earn your own reputation which other people can and will include in their opinions about you.
> The profanity is also unnecessary.
I don't see any profanity in the quoted comment.
> the Linux community
...is another matter entirely, and a discussion for another thread.
From my viewpoint, the problem with the personal attack is the overreaching scope and the hostile wording, not necessarily the critique. It is easy to be firm about laying down the rules of development without getting into the realm of "your entire code and opinion".
There is absolutely nothing wrong with his later post on this in my opinion ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02487.html ) and I don't think he's any less firm about the development rules here.
If you're driven away from having the job of transforming specific concrete direction into action for a large important organization then you should probably find a different job. Not everyone needs to put up with that, although if you have ambitions as a manager of people it will probably be career limiting.
The only strange thing about the Linux kernel is how it's all done in public instead of face to face.
We need more behavior like this. The reason why the modern software tend to be a pile of garbage is because it is managed like popularity contest of the project managers instead of people who want to get shit done.
It's like Fight Club, except instead of fighting all the characters keep asking Brad Pitt's character why they can't perform a one-man show on Broadway about fight club.