A Lesson from the Biggest Losers: Exercise Keeps Off the Weight | Hacker News Reader

A Lesson from the Biggest Losers: Exercise Keeps Off the Weight

nytimes.com

39 pointsdodders47 comments

From https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/12/studies...

"One of the most high profile examples of corporate meddling was the revelation last year that Coca-Cola had paid scientists to push the message that exercise was a more effective weight loss tool than cutting down on food and drink. The beverage giant went so far as to create a nonprofit called the Global Energy Balance Network to push the message that Americans spend too much time focusing on cutting calories, and not enough time exercising. Following an investigation by the New York Times, the nonprofit announced it was disbanding."

> push the message that exercise was a more effective weight loss tool than cutting down on food and drink

This and the other message that fat, and not sugar is responsible for obesity[1].

[1] Source: http://sugarcoateddoc.com

There was a thread a few days ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15527849) about how much more important diet is than exercise to maintaining weight.

It tends to be that way because, to most people, it's much easier to e.g. forego 100 calories of eating than it is to burn 100 calories through exercise. The end result, though, is quite similar as far as weight loss is concerned. But weight loss and weight maintenance are different, with the former being a temporary intervention and likely a top life priority for the duration.

As far as maintaining weight, this is much more about habits than anything else; many of us (certainly those with weight issues) will tend toward overeating if allowed. Regular mealtimes, recipe planning, and even calorie counting can work to mitigate this tendency. Exercise, too, is often a very important part of this; many find it easier to maintain a target weight while keeping an exercise regimen. Part of it may simply be that those who are disciplined or otherwise able to get regular exercise may also have better eating habits. But I think there is another effect that makes it easier to maintain a calorie balance when you have regular exercise.

I think this is one of those things that isn't so simple to separate as we think.

A big reason that people are attracted to unhealthy foods is because they taste good and are immediately satisfying. They are, in essence, a coping mechanism - something that makes us feel better (temporarily).

Exercise can be a healthier remedy to bad food to making you feel better. When you exercise and are feeling better, you are naturally more inclined to be attracted to healthier, more wholesome foods.

I expect that, for many people, it's not a simple matter to just eat better in and of itself, and stick to it. Stress and bad feelings need to find a coping mechanism, and they will find one, whether healthy or unhealthy - it really can't be avoided. You need to either reduce your stress, or find healthier coping.

For the last three months I've been lifting weights 2-3 times a week, doing an hour of hiking up local mountains 2-3 times a week, and a jiu jitsu class once a week.

I've lost maybe 3 lbs.

You may have lost more than that in fat and gained some muscle.

The goal of exercise or diet shouldn’t be to lose weight; it should be to increase fitness and to decrease body fat percentage.

My chest, shoulders and arms are bigger, but still pot bellied. Gonna take forever to get rid of that.

n = 14, with 7 of those regaining the weight they lost and 7 keeping it off.

I quit reading after I saw the sample size.

There are two ways to exercise: to create muscle which also increases metabolism so that you keep off the weight, try strength exercises and do cardio at a high heart rate (say 160bpm). To lose weight, surprisingly, lower the cardio heart rate so that you don't exceed 120bpm.

My two cents: I've found that if I'm exercising regularly, I don't crave poor nutrition foods. I think it gives me natural energy so that I don't seek it subconsciously in sugary or fatty foods.

I'm genuinely curious how a person can eat very little, and still balloon up to 300 lbs. To keep it off, they have to work out 2 hours every single day? It just seems... insane?

I wonder what kind of evolutionary adaptation that is...

The truth is you just can't outwork a bad diet.

A milkshake is worth an hour's worth of treadmill work.

Diets are not something that you just hop on for a short time and leave, it's a lifestyle change. Some diets are more for short term benefit than others, like keto, but once you're down to a decent weight you have to manage it.

> A milkshake is worth an hour's worth of treadmill work.

Not even. The Five Guys base milkshake is 870 calories before adding any mix-ins or whipped cream[1].

An hour on a treadmill at 6 mph for a 150 lb person is 567 calories net (exclusive of basal metabolism), 675 calories total (inclusive of basal metabolism)[2].

[1] http://www.fiveguys.com/-/media/Public-Site/Files/NutritionA...

[2] https://www.runnersworld.com/weight-loss/how-many-calories-a...

A hack I like to do with treadmills is to go 1.5-2 miles per hour and have an incline of 20-30%. You burn 600-800 calories but your going at walking speed. I call it the hiking simulator.

I've never seen a treadmill that goes over 15% grade. 30% is almost a stair stepper.

Ah it is a pretty unique treadmill: https://www.freemotionfitness.com/cardio/incline-trainers

They call it an incline trainer

With stair steppers I found it a lot harder to sustain it for the same nominal calorie count. But going up a %30 incline vs a stair stepper might be the same difference between an elliptical vs running.

And at 9 mph, they will burn over 1,000 kcal.

https://www.runnersworld.com/tools/calories-burned-calculato...

6:40 per mile is a pretty intense pace for most people to keep up for an hour.

Most people don't run much. Just as with hiking, strength straining, gymnastics and other sport, ability grows with training.

Another option is simply running longer. Few people who aren't overweight couldn't train up to 90 minutes. Given that there's overhead in showering and changing clothes, going longer, fewer days per week does have an efficiency of sorts.

Edit: Ideally one avoids having a completely irresponsible diet, however just training can do a lot and can also blunt the appetite after a certain threshold.

Running a 6:40 mile for an hour is outside of what most dedicated runners can achieve.

Don't be ridiculous. Ed Whitlock ran that pace for an entire marathon at the age of 73.

If you're dedicated, under 50, free of serious ailments and anywhere near the weight range this thread used as an example, it's something you can almost definitely achieve for a single hour.

I completely agree about not being able to out work a bad diet. On the other hand, cardio activity actually reduces my appetite and fills me up faster, and thus I believe that cardio helps more in that area relative to the actual burning of calories.

Exercise and a good diet are virtuous cycle. However, as someone who runs a lot (7-14 hours/week), I can tell you that there is such a thing as being rungry. I actually find it easier to lose weight when I'm on the lower end of my mileage range.

Also, it's easy to think "I ran so much, now I can eat more," which is a dangerous trap.

Then how did Courtney Dauwalter recently win the MOAB 240 race in Utah by over eight hours on a diet of nachos, candy and beer? She eats far more calories than a normal human could and is establishing new high marks in performance along the way. Not even the Tarahumara have put up her kind of numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DfjXnIk6c

A single hour on the treadmill will burn over 1,000 kcal for most somewhat fit people. It also increases their insulin sensitivity. The truth is most westerners and especially Americans are far too sedentary.

It is difficult to outwork a bad diet. If you are doing a 238 mile long race, you have very different dietary considerations than most people; and quite likely have a diet designed to maximize caloric intake.

A large chocolate shake from mcdonalds is 850 kcal. By your estimate, this is is 51 minutes of work to burn off. Possible, yes. Useful if you need the calories to run 240 miles, yes. Easier than not having the shake in the first place, no.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. She doesn't eat/drink those things all the time.

Michael Phelps ate an enormous amount of food too for his training too, and he trained very hard. I sincerely doubt him or Courtney devour that many calories when not in training or trying to run for five plus days straight.

Short term gorging yourself for fuel is sometimes necessary, but it's dishonest to propose that means a diet of nachos, candy and beer is somehow healthy. If everyone was doing the MOAB all the time that's a different story.

You're definitely not wrong, but consistent long term training does keep you at a higher metabolic rate.

I run pretty frequently (nothing like a ultra competition like that, though) and I can consistently eat ~3kcal a day and not gain a pound, even when maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of those days don't involve training.

To be fair, I'm still young, and probably have a genetic predisposition to burning a lot of calories, but I still think it's fair to say that consistent training results in a generally higher caloric intake even when not training.

The only thing I was pointing out is that people can, in fact, "outwork a bad diet". It's not easy, but it's not impossible either.

Where did you get that number? Unless you are doing some hardcore HIT, or doing olympic level running, you will never burn 1000 cal in a hour or running. Very few people can maintain 8+ mph for a whole hour.

"Like it or not, running makes for a really great cardio workout: Maintain a six-mile per hour pace, and you'll burn upwards of 557* calories in one hour! And even if running that fast for that long seems like a bit of a stretch, you can still burn an impressive 398 calories per hour by jogging."

I've done it myself, even when out of shape. The heavier you are the slower you need to go to burn that much. If you weigh 100 kilos and run a 10k in an hour, that's over 1,000 kcal. Lighter people burn less per km but we can run faster, too. HIT burns less but can give a nice metabolic boost.

Check runners world or a calculator of your choice.

https://www.runnersworld.com/tools/calories-burned-calculato...

One thing I notice from this Trail Runner article about her win is that "she wouldn't sleep much during the 57 hours she was on course," to the point of hallucination:

http://trailrunnermag.com/people/news/courtney-dauwalter-win...

I gather this was the first year for this event, so the other racers may have been more conservative in that regard.

She doesn't eat that during the race...

> Some diets are more for short term benefit than others, like keto

I've been on keto for ten months, and have lost ~70 pounds. I don't see it as a short-term change; I intend to spend the rest of my life either in ketosis or regularly spending time in that state.

This is why the common refrain of "Calories in vs. calories out." is so frustrating to someone in this situation. The problem is that those things are not independent. It's a pretty reasonable adaptation to try and keep those things in balance but for some people the balance is skewed towards calories in. If you don't exert constant willpower on both sides of the equation your body will try to balance whatever you are doing on one side by affecting the other. Neither diet or exercise alone are sufficient.

From my (very limited) observation most people who report that they gain weight but eating very little forget that they eat a gallon of ice cream every night or similar. The overweight people I know all without exception eat way more than I do. They may eat a salad for dinner but then they drink 3 glasses of wine or eat a ton of dessert.

To me the main effect of exercising is that it balances food cravings. I often eat less when I hike the whole day than when I am in the office.

The "trick" is in what you imagine is very little vs what 300 lbs person perceives as such. You cant beat laws of physics. RMR difference between someone weighting 300 and 150 lbs is merely one kfc bargain bucket, and thats just a dry snack for 300lbs dude, soda will double that.

You can't.

I don't buy it. They must eat insane amounts to balance that two hours of workout.

What you don't eat you don't need to burn off. I've found that I can get by on surprisingly little food if I am in my normal 9-to-5 business running mode. As soon as I start to move around and do stuff I need to eat a bit more, but desk work you can do on just about nothing and still maintain your weight.

Since I see stuff pop up like this all the time, I may as well write up how I went about cutting from 300+ to 215 lbs and subsequently putting on significant muscle mass and strength while keeping the weight off.

Step 1: identify why you want to lose weight.

The biggest reason people fail to lose weight is because they never really wanted to lose weight to begin with. What do I mean by this? A lot of people jump into weight loss without ever clearly articulating an overarching strong motivator for weight loss. The result is that when these people are confronted with hardship they are quick to give up because there is nothing driving them. Sit down and ask yourself why you want to be a different person. The more subjective the driver, the better. My reason was that I wanted to get a girlfriend and I knew I could never do this being very obese. Other good goals might be "I want to be around to walk my daughter down the aisle"; "I want to take my shirt off and have people be amazed"; "I want to live to see my grandchildren grow up"; "I want senpai to notice me" etc. Bad goals include "I want to be in good health"; "I want my cholesterol to lower by 20 points"; "I want to weigh X" and other proxies that no one really cares about (although these make excellent iterative goals to judge progress by).

Once you have identified this goal, write it down 10 times on paper every morning and repeat it to yourself in your head throughout the day. This will help you internalize it and dissuade you from breaking adherence when you are tempted. This may seem useless, but if you can't even write something down ten times every morning then how are you going to go about changing multiple systems in your life?

Step 2: pick your weapon

Pretty much any validated diet will work if you actually follow it to the letter. Zone, Atkins/keto, paelo, low fat, calorie counting, IIFYM and more are all viable choices. Some are easier to adhere to than others given your lifestyle. For example if you eat our a lot then keto is easier than calorie counting because you don't really have access to the ingredients to tabulate them. Don't get hung up on what is "optimal". The best diet plan is the one you are going to actually follow. Also, remember that you want to pick something that you will be able to follow forever. People incorrectly think of weight management as a discrete process that gets abandoned once you hit your goal. This is incorrect. You will need to actively manage your weight your entire life.

Step 3: measure

You can't evaluate what you can't measure. Get a scale and record your weight each day. Get MyFitnessPal and record your meals.

Step 4: design your systems

The second biggest reason people fail at dieting is because they don't have any systems. They therefore flail around and eventually give up because they aren't making progress. Let's say you want to do keto. Design 3-4 meals in my fitness pal that you will enjoy that fit your meal plan. Eat one of those variants every day. This makes meal planning simple, cheap, and easy. The less cognitive overhead you have to exert to adhere to the program, the easier adherence will be. I would also recommend getting a standard time to do meal prep, clean up, record your bodyweight etc. Checklists can be very helpful here as can tracking the number of days you are adherent.

Furthermore, set up your environment for success. Don't go out to eat with people until you are confident in your ability to say no to bad choices. Don't keep shitty food around in your home etc. Willpower is overrated, make non-adherence difficult. Your goal should be to construct a system where you have to use the least amount of willpower possible to adhere.

I would definitely recommend setting up social adherence aids like telling your friends you are doing a diet so they can call you on it when you don't perform well or feel like giving up, putting money on the line, creating a X days adherent ticker etc. This will create more pressure on yourself to adhere

Step 5: plan for contingencies

You will inevitably find yourself in an edge case situation where dieting will be harder. It's important to think about common edge cases you may encounter and develop plans to deal with them.

Common ones for me were things like:

I'm stuck late at work

- I had protein bars and powder in my desk

- I had meal templates in my fitness for common meals at restaurants near my workplace

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere

- I had protein bars and snacks in my backpack

- I knew fast food meal options that fit my diet plan

I have to go to an event where bad food will be served

- I ate beforehand or afterwards and told people I am dieting. Not only were they cool with it but they were very supportive

I'm going out drinking

- I knew how many calories and carbs were in common beers and liquor by heart.

- I purged my house of bad food so if I was drunk I couldn't eat it

Eventually you will encounter a situation you haven't planned for, which is where your overarching goal, social pressure, habits, and willpower will kick in and save you if you let them. Power through.

Step 6: move your ass

Do some exercise. It doesn't really matter what. Similar to diet plan optimization, people often ask me what the "best" exercise is. My answer is always the one you will do. For me that is powerlifting. For other people it could be basketball, badminton, running, walking, bodybuilding, cycling, swimming, tree climbing whatever. As long as you do it regularly you will find success. I find it useful to also record progress in these endeavors as it helps adherence and also serves as an added motivator to diet.

The one thing I would say is be reasonable. If you have never run before don't so something like interval training. You will fucking die and give up. Start with jogging and build up to that etc.

Step 7: execute!

You have your plans now go out and execute. The key to dieting success is adherence adherence adherence. NO CHEAT DAYS, NO CHEAT MEALS, NO EXCUSES OR SPECIAL OCASSIONS. For my birthday I would always turn down cake and eating out and instead diet extra hard as recognition of my hard work. My weight loss was my present, I didn't need more. Remember that if people try to exert social pressure on you to break your diet, it's because they are weak or they are not your friends. Your real loved ones will understand and support you when you turn down their birthday cake or invitation to go eat bad food. In a moment of weakness during my birthday I went to order a craft beer only to have my good friend tell me to stop fucking up. That's a true friend :D

The big takeaway here is that this stuff really isn't that hard and the planning doesn't take much time. I literally did an hour of planning before I embarked on my diet after someone told me "you should try Atkins" and iterated as I went.

Also, once you develop a set of reasonable systems, you won't need to worry about putting weight on because you can just modify your systems for maintenance instead of weight loss. A big reason why people put weight back on is because they treat weight management as dieting. To see how stupid this is, imagine you are trying to achieve financial stability and you start by saying "I'm going to slash my expenses to the bone and then when I'm debt free I can go back to normal". It's immediately obvious that this plan will lead to long term or even short term failure and yet people typically approach their weight this way. Please don't be that guy or girl. Also if you need help or are confused please feel free to ping me.

I followed a simpler plan:

Stop eating out regularly - and If I'm eating out, share half portions with my partner. (Some restaurant meals include an entire adult's calorie allowance in one sitting.)

Stop buying takeouts (ditto.)

Stop eating sandwiches, or any food with concentrated carbs, because they're high in calories but very unfilling.

Eliminate foods that cause cravings (e.g. certain milk chocolate bars, which apparently increase appetite for hours afterwards.)

Pay attention to food effects, and avoid bad foods - i.e. high calories, unfilling, cravings - because to some extent the foods that cause these effects are personal.

They're also age dependent. (You can eat a lot more in your 20s than your 50s.)

All sweet and sugary food is bad. Avoid. No exceptions.

Bulk out meals with salad and/or eat soups with plenty of water content. (The water/fibre suppresses appetite.)

Go for an hour's energetic walk every day, including a few uphill sections. (Pokemon Go works for this.)

It's a fairly gentle and informal regime based on simple rules and diet changes rather than obsessive monitoring and exercising. But it lost me over 10kg over a few months.

While it is excellent that this implementation worked for you, I feel like it's more important that people understand generalized principles of weight loss success rather than a specific implementation which happened to fit your habits and lifestyle. Some people will need to do far more than this and some will need to do far less. The specific food and exercise regimens you pick are only one aspect of a weight loss journey.

Or perhaps those who put more effort into staying fit tend to do better at it in the long run?

It's not just the exercise, but the willpower to keep working at it. Exercise is just 1 manifestation of that mindset.

This is not true. If you consume more than you burn, you don't keep off the weight. I know this all too well.

another take on same study: https://lluniversity.com/are-biggest-loser-contestants-ruine...

The human body is a complex adaptive system evolved over a billion years. How much a person weighs is going to be determined by many factors (genetic, mental, social, etc.) that vary in strength from person to person and change for each person over time. No simple solution that everyone can use to get to their "ideal" weight is likely. Scott Alexander has some interesting thoughts about it[1].

Edit: It seems to me that if exercise helps in keeping a low weight, it is likely that it is from some long term feed back loop. Having a bunch of extra fat is good and can get you through the famine when skinny people will die. But, if your life depends on running lot (hunting down antelope, running from hyenas, etc.) being heavy will be a disadvantage. The body tries to balance these out in some way (along with hundred of other things). A similar trade off happens in muscle formation. The body will only build up expensive to maintain muscle over a long period of time of pushing them near their existing limit.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/26/anorexia-and-metabolic-... [1]

Reply on news.ycombinator.com