Square announces the Register, a $999 point-of-sale device for larger businesses | Hacker News Reader

Square announces the Register, a $999 point-of-sale device for larger businesses

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Square is a privacy nightmare. They track your purchases across stores and tie your email to your credit card. The worst part is there is no "opt in" either. There is no privacy policy or terms of service that I agree to. My only option is to either pay in cash or not shop there.

Most large retailers already do this and have been doing so for a while (pretty much all grocery stores and chain retailers) and you most likely never "opted-in" to those either.

If privacy is that important to you then just pay cash. Otherwise your credit card company, your bank, Facebook, Equifax, Google and the store itself among others are all tracking you as much as possible across purchases in the physical retail world and across all your web traffic. All of these datapoints are being cross-correlated in a billion different ways.

"I'm not on Facebook" - oh yes you are. There's a shadow profile built of you even though you never signed up for Facebook. Same goes for Google, and many other services you never explicitly signed up for.

So now let's talk about cash. So you pay with cash and you think your privacy is preserved? Nope! The moment you walk in the store, the wifi beacons are tapping into your smartphone and adding to the internal profile the shop has of you. They know when you walked in the store, they know when you walked out, and they probably know enough to correlate your cash payment with your profile.

I'm sorry but that's the world we live in.

Absolutely. Every middleman in the chain is repackaging and selling your data.

Wi-Fi beacons work only if you can connect to them on modern phone OSes, but yep, exactly my thinking. The price of free Wi-Fi: your privacy.

Bunch of places near my work don't accept cash anymore (seems recent as of a year or so ago). Card only, no checks either.

Is this legal?

Yes. Cash is only required to work for paying debt. The store can request whatever payment method they want.

I was curious how this was legal, but it looks like they're only required to accept cash as payment for debt. As long as no service is provided before you pay then it's legal to refuse cash.

Not everyone has a smart phone. I don't. Believe it or not you are not required to have a smart phone function in the word. At best it is a pointless waste or time and money gadget at worst it is a tracking device and profile builder.

I've never had one, and it's as difficult for me to understand why people think they need one, as it is for them to understand how I survive without one.

Your comment is incredibly short sighted and is on par with saying "Having a computer is not required to function in the world, at best it is pointless....".

For many people in the world, the smartphone is their only computer. For many people in the world, a smartphone is an invaluable tool that has been a driver of positive change. For many people in the world, a smartphone is required for them to make a living and put food on their family's table.

Having a smartphone is on par with having access to the internet to economic success in many societies.

Like the internet, yes the smartphone has a multitude of downsides that are well documented. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater and make sweeping statements like the one you've made is just wrong.

Is that even legal?

US? Of course. EU? Subject to data protection, but still quite widespread.

This happens regardless of whether you use a Square till or not: https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/datalogix/inde...

You think Square is the only part of the credit-card purchasing process that's a privacy nightmare?

Credit cards track your purchases. Square maybe makes it a bit more obvious that your purchase history is going up to the internet, but i'm not sure why you think other credit card processors aren't tracking you.

I understand they know where I shopped, that is clear on my statement each month. But they don't know what I bought, unless I shop at a store that only sells one thing.

Many POS terminals send full purchase information back to the cc processor. This is used in fraud detection and also sold as part of your profile.

A while back Mastercard did a commercial where they showed you how you could see what you bought in your online statements.

It looks like this is called "Level 3 data" and primarily for corporate cards, not standard consumer credit cards. I'm not sure if that data is still collected for consumer purchases - I've never been offered any opportunity to see more detail about what I purchased, even for a price.

One significant benefit of having that data would be that it would be easier to remember and prove things you owned for insurance purposes after a loss.

All payment processors do this- they just don’t make it so obvious

Agreed. I was absolutely horrified the first time I got one of their receipt emails after buying a sandwich.

>>The worst part is there is no "opt in" either. There is no privacy policy or terms of service that I agree to. My only option is to either pay in cash or not shop there.

This is true about every store. All credit card companies and vendors work together to collate all of this data easily. Most don't tell you they're doing it. Square at least made you aware of it.

Or use Apple Pay (etc.) with the new contactless reader, then only your credit card network and bank can identify you based on the transaction.

Not really. The token merchants/payment processors get is very easily trackable across transactions. It is a bit harder to link to a real card number though.

Since you see transactions that occur on the card off Apple pay in the wallet also im pretty if Apple wanted they could just sell API access to 3rd parties banks and issuers already have that access possibility also payment processors.

I don’t think Apple could sell transaction data:

> Apple Pay retains anonymous transaction information such as approximate purchase amount. This information can’t be tied back to the user and never includes what the user is buying.

https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf, page 38.

They don’t have much information that the issuing bank/card network do not have already.

Great, now they’ll spin this huge register around so I can waste 2 minutes figuring out how to not accidentally tip at the grocery store /s

Please read the article before you add a non-value comment.

They bring up a good point. Existing square point of sale tablets often push the tip screen, even in situations where you wouldn't usually tip. It turns a normal quick purchase into a guilty one.

What do POS systems cost typically? For example, what does a standard credit card reader cost, and is there additional transaction fees ontop of what credit card companies charge?

Like most B2B things, quite a lot, even just for hardware:

https://www.barcodesinc.com/cats/pos-workstations/

For a decent system like what you see at a Walmart or Kroger? Figure $3500 for the hardware and a grand for the software usually, but that buys everything from the scale/scanner (NCR 7878 usually) to the coin dispenser, with everything in between included.

Though, to get towards this price takes 10 lanes or so before you hit economies of scale. Otherwise you end up with a gimped, half baked solution if you cheap out. 2x longer or worse per transaction to ring a customer out.

Pricing is fairly opaque in general, likely due to the sales structure and cycle. Probably the closest competitor here is Clover, which Google Search found with a cost of $999 for the first device (apparently subsequent ones are $1249). There's an additional software and service fee ($39/mo first device, $25/mo additional devices). So, comparable.

This is just for the hardware and software though, actual payment processing requires a merchant account that charges fees. Everyone has to pay these. If you're small, there's programs like these that are designed to get you your first merchant account. If you're big, this is a negotiation process where different sales departments will try to match or beat your current rates.

Chip and pin pads are about $100 - $150, basic mag swipes about $20.

If you have a merchant account of your own there aren't usually extra fees; POS software is paid by b2b subscription site license.

A cheap[0] entry into a market with a lot of outdated established players. This is a classic potentially disruptive move.

[0] new PoS systems can cost $3k and up. Seems like this is only missing a cash drawer (optional add on) and those are cheap.

Still no scale/scanner combo support, coin dispenser, or any way to use a non-overpriced receipt printer. Once again, Square is stuck doing a meh job replacing the cheap cash register and nothing more.

Are POS units actually cheap? Seems to me like one of those areas where things are potentially way more expensive than it seems they should be.

Yes, a Casio cash register can be had for $99 to $250 new, and has scanner support. Credit/Debit won't be integrated, but at least you get a cash drawer and a receipt printer included in that price unlike Square's offering.

I'd be more curious about TCO including a Verifone terminal and the fees associated with that. Still hard to imagine it climbing up to $999, although there are probably some annual fees that Square instead built into transaction fees and the hardware price.

Not having cash actually is a feature for some establishments. There's a bar in Berkeley that doesn't allow you to pay with cash, so they had no need for registers. We assumed the purpose was to prevent any incentive to rob the place (even by employees).

It's probably not just being robbed but all the controls and general headaches associated with cash (transferring cash to and from the bank) that have to be in place if you use cash at all. Not just for securing against robbery but for accounting controls, auditors, etc.

It's not that common today (and there are legal issues in some states), but I can easily see an establishment that gets to the 90% (or whatever) credit card/smartphone payment range deciding to just dump cash entirely.

This is quite rare compared to cash only establishments, I've yet to run into any bar like that in Seattle.

> "Doesn't allow you to pay with cash"

How? Once they've poured your drink and ask for money, they can't refuse your cash payment[0] (that's what "legal tender" means). I suppose they could forbid you from ordering another at that point, or ban you....

[0] ETA: or rather, they can refuse it, but only if they forgive the debt. If you try to pay a debt in legal cash, they can't tell you "no you need to pay us some other way".

(IANAL)

Pretty sure they can:

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

All debts public and private refers to debts by a creditor. A drink you haven't paid for isn't a debt. It's just an account payable. They don't have to take your cash.

>debts by a creditor

It's clearly not all debts. I actually can't think of any debts this applies to. Your student loan, credit card, auto loan, home loan, water bill, power bill, heck even rent if you're in a modern corporately owned complex... would never under any circumstances accept cash payment. It would be stunning if one even provided an address that isn't a PO box, let alone an address where you could get in the front door if you showed up in person, assuming you were willing to travel a few thousand miles.

At most there might be something like a retail bank branch where you could deposit cash and then request an electronic transmission of the same amount of money.

I used to think that but after some more reading I realized it’s fundamentally not true.

YANAL, as you said, and this is a common misconception about what “legal tender” is.

Or, just exercise their right to not serve you? If you order something and then are unable to pay in the manner they request, they can just throw the drink away and move on. This would also happen if your card was declined.

It’s also a feature to help keep out people with worse credit, who are likelier to cause problems, such as in hotels.

Industry standard POS systems are usually significantly more expensive

A supermarket POS (Fujitsu, NCR, etc) runs about $7.5k - $15k per lane.

Depends on your supermaket POS vendor. NCR has by far the most expensive offerings, but there are a few dozen smaller vendors, some of which have reimplemented a few of the core concepts of ACS, BR Data and other components, thrown them all in one package, and offered it at a much more reasonable price.

Plus they have a device-specific pricing, which is crazy. Those $.10 for small-ticket sales is a big percentage. I'm disappointed as it marks the beginning of a dangerous pricing policy!

Philz in the dogpatch already has one of these and it looks pretty cool! They should keep their distinctive white design though because it was instantly recognizable as a Square reader.

This thing in the second photo looks mechanically very unstable. Imagine what happens if customers are touching the base of your monitor all the time.

Interesting, seems somewhat similar to a product the Commonwealth Bank (Australia) offers called 'Albert'. Basically just a tablet in a fancy case with various apps to fulfill various POS needs.

Also quite a lot more expensive than an Albert - 2.5% seems like a lot? Maybe I'm missing some info here though, POS isn't really my forte...

This is a big pos card reader. How is this interesting and on the front page?

Genuine question

No cash drawer?

Is $999 an competitive price for a cash register? Just curious.

It is. I'm just disappointed as this doesn't seem mobile - I was planning to donate one for our regular festival. :(

Device is $999.

But cost of training personnels is probably thousands more than that..

What makes you say that? There's a (small) learning curve when using any payment system, and the existing Square app is pretty easy to use.

Or a substantial cost savings over total product lifecycle if the system is intuitive and helps to prevent errors.

Cashiers can be high turnover...

That was the most valuable takeaway for me with installing and managing retail POS systems. It doesn't matter how much time you put into planning and inventory control, if the staff doesn't implement it correctly the POS will never reach it's true value as a tool. It's very important to not only have effective training, but re-training for the humans using the systems.

Depends on the POS system, but older products like NCR ACS, ISS45, Toshiba SurePOS Ace, etc all make huge assumptions that the cashiers will remember 100+ four codes, and can deal with all the curveballs that both systems throw at the user. There are better POSes out there, where you don't have to spend a few days training each new employee for them to be productive and competent.

Training usually isn't bad, Square's POS offering has few features. Remember that you'll still need a receipt printer ($300) and a cash drawer ($100 to $200). Not a terribly impressive offering IMO

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