I practiced Ben Franklin's 13 virtue system for 3 years | Hacker News Reader

I practiced Ben Franklin's 13 virtue system for 3 years

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131 pointsjaymeh1366 comments

If you're interested in something like this, but something that seems a lot more "applicable", try to do sentence completions according to this book. It's one of the best books I have ever read, and I don't say that lightly. Every person I recommend it to instantly is blown away.

https://www.amazon.com/Six-Pillars-Self-Esteem-Nathaniel-Bra...

He talks about sentence completions in there. I've been doing them and just a few days of doing them I've already made major changes that I haven't been able to make with "just" mind and willpower. It's like it somehow digs up stuff out of your subconscious and lets it go.

Wow, this looks fantastic. Thanks for the rec

I like the look of those:

http://www.nathanielbranden.com/sentence-completion-i

I agree that's an excellent book, and that his sentence completion exercises are helpful. I would caution against thinking they're some kind of magical thing; they help, that's all, there's still lots of work a person needs to do. In any case, anyone who's interested can start out by reading the same exercises on his website (which is still there even though Branden died several years ago):

http://www.nathanielbranden.com/sentence-completion-i

http://www.nathanielbranden.com/sentence-completion-ii

Just a note on Bushido: Although I'm sure such codes can be useful to people, it's essentially bullcrap got used to fuel Japan's rise of fascism.

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

I particularly loathe the term as I've heard it used by more than one desperate "white knight" who doesn't practice a single bit of it but uses it to appear virtuous. Whenever I hear someone mention "bushido", my first instinct is to assume they don't know what they're talking about.

I think it's fine to espouse the ideology if one actually takes it seriously and understands the history(or lack thereof). Sadly, it seems more often to be used as a seemingly non-denominational form of code to be adopted by those trying to mask their own lack of virtue. Then again, it's probably more effective to adopt parts of different ideologies you find useful rather than taint yourself with a name like Bushido.

Japan was never Fascist

Care to explain? 1930s/40s Japan was an authoritarian nationalist regime. I don't see how they weren't fascist, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

Arguably, as Fascism was an actual political movement in Italy, Japan could no more have been considered Fascists than they could have been considere Nazis. They were Imperialists.

However both 'fascist' and 'nazi' have commonly understood meanings beyond am affiliation with their respective political parties, so while datawarrior was technically correct (making them the best kind of correct) they were also being needlessly pedantic.

You should look up what Fascism actually is. Sad this has to be pointed out on HN. Really sad

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Chivalry is very similar. Wikipedia even has a section calling it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry#Literary_chivalry_and...

It doesn't say that chivalry was some fascist practice, just that it's never been that prevalent.

Did you read the"ten commandments" in the section above? It was very much part of the larger fuedal system, including the church.

D.H. Lawrence's take on Franklin's virtues is immortal:

http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/lewiss/lawrence.htm

My high school English teacher, Frank McCourt, used to love reading this out loud.

The Frank McCourt? Angela's Ashes Frank McCourt?

Well he did teach English. At Stuyvessant if I recall correctly.

Yes, every semester for 2.5 years while at Stuyvesant H.S.

I remember his voice clearly, when he paused and said, "I do not like him."

What was it like having him as a teacher? His writings portray him as deeply passionate about the field & a very genuine human being; I'd be interested to know how your experience compared.

Also, I'm incredibly jealous.

Well, put it this way: One day there was some kind of staffing glitch, and one of my classes had no teacher. So 30 students were left to their own devices; some snuck outside, some went to the cafeteria to socialize, some to the library, or to the auditorium, which was used as a kind of study hall. At the time, McCourt was covering Hamlet. Remember high school? Every subject, every day, for forty minutes. I went to McCourt’s classroom, found the one empty desk, and sat down. He glanced at me and kept on going, without missing a beat.

I re-read Hamlet every few years. In my inner voice, the characters have a tendency to slip into an Irish accent.

Wow; that's fantastic. Clear from these posts that he had a profound impact on you.

Enjoyed this much better than the actual linked article.

I love Lawrence's take on the thirteen. While I don't agree with them all in their entirety, he makes some really deep, visceral, and compelling points about the human experience.

I think anyone who tries can make their own seemingly compelling points about the human experience. We all live a human experience. And it's easy to make proclamations and virtues and tell yourself how you're going to live. It's a different animal to try and live by them.

I never said they would be worth trying to live by. I said they were interesting.

I don't know; to me this is grating in its own way.

I love this. I'm sorry for the off-topic post, but for anyone who hasn't read DH Lawrence's poetry, I would recommend it. It's not as clean as his contemporaries, but it's full of fiery insights, and there are only a handful of poets I pick up as often. "Snake" is one of my favorites.

https://www.poetsgraves.co.uk/Classic%20Poems/Lawrence/snake...

> A Quaker friend told Franklin that he, Benjamin, was generally considered proud, so Benjamin put in the Humility touch as an afterthought. The amusing part is the sort of humility it displays. 'Imitate Jesus and Socrates,' and mind you don't outshine either of these two. One can just imagine Socrates and Alcibiades roaring in their cups over Philadel- phian Benjamin, and Jesus looking at him a little puzzled, and murmuring: 'Aren't you wise in your own conceit, Ben?'

Is this written in jest or is it just poor reading comprehension? It's obvious a writer like Franklin wrote "Imitate Jesus and Socrates" on purpose. It's a self-referential reminder of the kind of statement that doesn't indicate humility. Notice how short it is compared to all the other virtue descriptions. If you read more Franklin you know that he likes witticisms.

I'm sorry but it's very hard for me to take seriously Ben Franklin's exhortations to chastity and temperance. I guess he had some awareness of this given his famous dialogue with gout. http://www.bartleby.com/109/3.html

I doubt Ben took them seriously. He's well known for having fabricated popular stories on slow publication weeks/months. This was likely his form of click-bate.

Click-bait? I think click-bate is something else.

With bated click - the moving mouse/finger hovers for a while, then, having hovered, moves on.

Especially if it's something on medium.com

I mean the list of virtues is very typical of this era in America anyway, to be fair to Ben Franklin. I doubt a lot of thought went into it.

I look at it the other way around: the reason these were so important to Franklin was that he knew perfectly well how bad he was at them.

Somewhere along the line we've conflated valuing virtue with already being virtuous. The hypocrisy of most "moral movements" doesn't help, of course.

Sure, we all fall short of our own ideals. But when your own lifestyle goes so far, gleefully, in the opposite direction you have to ask yourself if it's really a virtue you care about.

1. Don't waste too much time on Hacker News.

In case the attempt to maintain chastity were in danger of failing, Franklin had some interesting advice on one way to handle that:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/51-fra.html

The first thing that came to mind when reading the list:

1. TEMPERANCE Hara Hachi Bu

2. SILENCE It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

3. ORDER This would be my wife's number 1. She abhors clutter.

4. RESOLUTION Why is this called resolution instead of honesty?

5. FRUGALITY Avoid debt I guess.

6. INDUSTRY Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration.

7. SINCERITY Not sure about this one. Don't be deceitful?

8. JUSTICE I should receive compensation for my work. I shouldn't receive compensation for work that I don't do. If I break a law I should receive the corresponding penalty. If I don't break a law I should not be penalized.

9. MODERATION How is this different than temperance?

10. CLEANLINESS Take a shower once in awhile.

11. TRANQUILLITY Don't be an asshole?

12. CHASTITY Get checked for STIs on a regular basis.

13. HUMILITY Humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less.

>12. CHASTITY Get checked for STIs on a regular basis.

I think that even in a modern context you are setting the bar a little low there. But good for you for getting regular check-ups!

Yea I'd swap that for "wear a condom."

> 8. JUSTICE ...

Also, you should pay for other people's work, not demand that they do things for free.

Isn't that the same as "I should receive compensation for my work."? The I is just a placeholder for any person.

You'll note that the Golden Rule doesn't appear on the list.

What a small world. I was looking at purchasing the Walter Issac's Ben Franklin book from Audible yesterday. I remember seeing a Discovery documentary about him a few years back and found Ben to be fascinating (before that documentary, he was the guy who flew a kite).

I do know that after a while he did do away with his 13 virtues since many of then conflicted with each other (after all, the dude was a ladies man). I guess its a decent experiment to try, but I think its over doing it to have it as your way of life (well 13 virtues anyway).

I do like the virtue of being Proactive and Silence. Maybe I should practice them for a week.

If you’re considering reading a Ben Franklin biography, I would highly recommend reading his autobiography as well (if you haven’t already).

As I recall, the punchline to Ben's pursuit of 13 virtues was "Adhering to all these virtues makes one too perfect to be humble"

The list is self-conflicting.

Franklin's conclusion basically was "everything in moderation".

Yeah, I thought the list was supposed to be satirical/humorous but it sounds like the author of the article was really trying to follow the virtues. Am I missing something?

The submission should be titled, "How I have been practicing Ben Franklin's 13 virtue system for 3 years"

I went to the article to see why the author had stopped, thinking I'd learn something about such systems (leephillips' comment sheds more on this question).

The author interestingly describes how he followed such a process but doesn't really get into the benefits or drawbacks and it sounds like he is continuing.

My favorite BF ancillary axiom is "Advice to a friend on choosing a mistress." There are zillions of horny, middle-upper-class women whom do pilates, yoga, etc. and are HAF. So much nicer to see someone whom has fewer hangups, expectations, drama and behaves more like an adult. Chastity (12.) implies neither celibacy nor promiscuity, but Moderation (9.).

I hear you, brother. Much less work for more benefits with benefits. Men and women both have sex on the Maslow hierarchy of needs, to varying degrees. Men and women both get mood and cardio improvements from getting laid regularly.

PSA: Practice safer sex.

OP here.

This system is helpful but imperfect. I welcome any suggestions on virtues or practicing them.

Stoicism. You just missed Stoic Week 2017, but you should be able to find the course materials online.

Any good pointers and/or advice on getting into stoicism?

His number 13 is interesting. To type that out in a post would normally get you down voted by the angry young mob around here.

I had to look up "venery" :)

Don't miss out on "term of venery" -- it means more than STDs and sex.

I'm just curious if they practiced that 'chastity' one... cause 'no thanks' lol

"but for health" allows a lot. And "never to dullness, weakness, or to the injury of your own, or others' peace or reputation" is a pretty solid policy.

I never practiced this because I didn't feel it very helpful. I wish I had more insight into why Ben Franklin thought this was important.

> I wish I had more insight into why Ben Franklin thought this was important.

Perhaps you would if you'd tried it :)

But really, doesn't this point boil down to: don't act like a sex addict, and avoid stirring up a bunch of drama?

The standards for acceptable conduct in the 18th Century were quite different in this regard than they are today.

> The standards for acceptable conduct in the 18th Century were quite different in this regard than they are today.

Well, they didn't have Tinder, but I'm not so sure things were as different as you may think. Here's a pretty amusing letter Franklin wrote that may provide some insight into his thinking on the topic:

Benjamin Franklin, Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of a Mistress (1745) - http://www.themightypen.net/topic/16757-benjamin-franklin-ad...

I've read it, but give more thought to points 3 and 4. Obviously people were sometimes having extramarital sex, but they were not freely admitting it and it could be truly scandalous (particularly for the woman) if someone learned of it.

Interesting read, thanks!

Unclosable pop-up window.

Great post, nice system to improve the self.

Sidenote: I think its fair to say Franklin never achieved the "Justice" virtue considering he was considered a racist. I guess pretty much all influential white man in America during the 1700s were though. But check out Benjamin Franklin's "Obervations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries."

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