Update the UK Traffic Signs Regulations to a Geometrically Correct Football | Hacker News Reader

Update the UK Traffic Signs Regulations to a Geometrically Correct Football

petition.parliament.uk

76 pointsrobin_reala42 comments

An image to illustrate the issue:

http://aperiodical.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/footballs-...

That's an ugly-ass footbal, geometry aside.

The one we have in Italy is much more pleasing (not to mention correct): https://imgur.com/a/0XqNV

Good grief that is awful, especially considering there was a bit of thought put into the typeface used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)) ... this looks like someone had only 5 minutes before the deadline and had only a vague memory of seeing a football in an old Roy of the Rovers strip when they were a kid

I've seen an interview with the women who made many road signs still in use (it's not on Youtube). She modelled the 'children crossing' on herself and her younger brother. It was all made with the idea to be figurative and idiomatic over life-like.

Meh, if we're going to get our panties in a bunch about something, let's try the slippery road surface sign...

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02692/Slippery-R...

Nothing wrong with a sign saying you’ll spin your car on a slippery road!

>Nothing wrong with a sign saying you’ll spin your car on a slippery road!

The point is - I believe - that in the given version (UK) the traces of the tires cross.

The Italian (possibly normal EU) version is different:

https://www.laleggepertutti.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Re...

and tires trace are "normal".

And this is the German version:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Ze...

where a "third trace" appears.

They cross because the car on the sign has spun 180˚ rather than simply sliding. As the car spins the tracks from the left wheels cross over the tracks from the right.

I admit that the German one is weird, but if the car has taken the corner at an angle and fast enough that it’s lifted a wheel you could see those tracks. (e.g. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JJVUFblJPIU/T0bmqmdpNFI/AAAAAAAAER... )

>They cross because the car on the sign has spun 180˚ rather than simply sliding. As the car spins the tracks from the left wheels cross over the tracks from the right.

Which means that when UK roads are slippery, they are really slippery, or maybe continental drivers manage to get away without a 180° spin.

However if we want to be picky, the traces of a 180° spin are different, there are generally two crossings, unless two wheels (on the same axle) loose contact with the road.

For that to be true, the car can only have one axle?

Another petition rejected (although I do understand it was somewhat in jest). I do wonder what the point of these petitions are if the government basically refuses to act on any of them [1]. I guess it's nice because parliament debates the issue (on some occasions, a few times they just refuse [2]) then gives a public response of why they're not going to do what the petition asked for.

[1] https://petition.parliament.uk/#petitions-with-response

[2] https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/173199

There's no point to them. It's a feelgood option like a lift door close button (edit: apparently this is a bad analogy, suggest a different one please?). Which is why they've degenerated into jokes.

Also the public are hardly of one mind. See the duelling Brexit petitions, https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200004?reveal_respo... vs https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200311?reveal_respo...

"It's a feelgood option like a lift door close button."

What's with a lift door close button? Open/close buttons certainly does work in my apartment building and pretty much any non-ancient lift I've encountered. Or do they still do nothing in USA?

In my recent observation, in the USA they do nothing, but people still sometimes press them. But in South East Asia they immediately close the lift door, everyone uses them, and it's great.

It might be that the lifts I was in in SEA were all newer (as were the buildings) than most of those in the US.

I have remarked that people from China always use the close door button. At first it weirded me out because I always waited for the door to close.

In my apartment the close door button is a trap because one has to hold it during the whole closing door procedure and maybe 1 second more, otherwise the door will open. It usually results in more time lost than if one just waited for the door to close.

The lift close button in my work actually does close the doors.

Eh, I've been in lifts where the close button does something.

I know this because you had to hold it until the doors fully closed, otherwise they would judder to a halt and open again.

I'm not sure I'd say it worked to close the doors early, but it certainly did something.

They're at least useful for manual modes.

Source: DEFCON - Elevator Hacking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHf1vD5_b5I

The pedestrian walk button is probably better, but as I have found when I could not be bothered pushing them these are sometimes functional.

This reminds me of when I was 4 my mother told me if I pressed the walk button a hundred times the traffic would stop. It worked every time :)

I've lived in areas where the pedestrian walk buttons are non-functional and also in areas where they extend the length of the green light in your direction. It's way too much effort to determine if they work or not, so I'll just continue mindlessly mashing them until the light changes anyway :)

The thermostat control in my office.

>(edit: apparently this is a bad analogy, suggest a different one please?).

Voting in any democracy which has undergone regulatory capture?

This is the petition started by Matt Parker, YouTube's stand-up math comedy guy (https://www.youtube.com/user/standupmaths). While I wouldn't say it was entirely serious, he suggested that, while existing signs could be left, future designs could at least be designed to be more accurate. The official reply seems to have continued the mildly amusing spirit of the original.

Link to the original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPqKAGyajM

Also a plug for Matt Parker in general, who does a lot of great technical but funny work. For example, here he explains the fundamentals of computers with dominoes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNuPy-r1GuQ

> The higher level of attention needed to understand the geometry could distract a driver’s view away from the road for longer than necessary which could therefore increase the risk of an incident.

Whoever wrote this reply wasn't entirely serious.

Governments tend to overcomplicate things. It would literally take less than an hour to update the template they use for new signs. Less time than they took to write this response. They don't have to change all signs at once, just phase this in for new signs.

This is a decision that could be made by some small steering group or executive position, you don't need to invoke the whole parliament or government. Governments need to find a balance between acting quickly and "agile" and keeping important decisions to be considered carefully. There are so many low-hanging fruit, some silly like this, but some more useful, that you could really change in an instant, but are not.

Though, as hinted at in the response, there's more to it than you're assuming, such as research to ensure the new signs are understandable.

Changing things "just because" on your own software systems is fine if that's how you want to work. Changing signage that needs to be correct and understandable takes more effort and rolling back is expensive.

I'd much rather see someone take an hour to write a response on why they're not going to make an unnecessary change to something like this, than waste a lot more time and money screwing around updating signage that works as it's meant to already.

> This is a decision that could be made by some small steering group or executive position, you don't need to invoke the whole parliament or government.

How do you think this is done already? No direct insight here but I'd be willing to wager money it doesn't require the 'whole parliament or government'..

It's in another comment elsewhere, but here is the video explaining the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPqKAGyajM

We should ask MS and Google to fix their soccer ball emojis too.

https://emojipedia.org/soccer-ball/

Off Topic: If i remember correctly the site runs on Ruby Rails.

You’re right, it was a GDS project (before the current Parliament Digital Service was set up): https://github.com/alphagov/e-petitions

The UK is in record levels of debt, people are using food banks and the NHS under attack from both industry and government. This would definitely be a good use of public funds. Priorities?

Humour gets people through dark times.

I feel that this is one of the basic operating principles of the UK....

If there's ever a constitution that should be one of the main guarantees, along decent tea and "milk after, not before".

He's not asking to replace existing signs, only to have new signs be correct.

There's zero cost to this.

you can hear him talk about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPqKAGyajM

Lets be realistic, probably a 6'ish figure sum to get the bureaucracy completed. Still, peanuts.

A bloke making a maths joke and a civil servant responding humorously to a maths joke does not plunge us further into debt.

See that's the problem..

You have to fund 'maths' instead of just 'math'.

Already makes it cost at least 2x as much.

Many of the above problems are down to stupid decisions by the government. Consider the effort to change the football as an attack on stupid in general. You never know - get the math correct on footballs today and they may get it right real issues tomorrow.

Like a kind of "broken window theory" for stupidity - maybe it'd snowball? It's worth a shot!

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