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Comment by joering2 | Hacker News Reader

Whats interesting in recent years it came up that children in Germany were learning about "Polish concentration camps", highly alluding that those places had more to do with polish people than with Germans (that they were of polish evil invention and ran by polish people).

There is also a long "tradition" in Germany to detach Germans from what they did in past. For example, average Dutch will not tell you "Germans start World War 2", he/she will tell you "Nazis Started World War 2". This goes very far. Before that, it wasn't Germans who were slaughtering Europeans, it was Teutonic Order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order

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> There is also a long "tradition" in Germany to detach Germans from what they did in past. For example, average Dutch will not tell you "Germans start World War 2", he/she will tell you "Nazis Started World War 2". This goes very far. Before that, it wasn't Germans who were slaughtering Europeans, it was Teutonic Order.

That seems reasonable. A country's government and its population or cultural identity are different. Especially as time goes on.

Germany was arguably the most educated, enlightened, and cultured country of that time. Look at all those Nobel winners. They chose to take on the garments of Nazism. It was Germany that killed all of those Jews, Gypsies, handicapped, Christians, and anyone else who opposed them. Trying to say "that was just this crazy political party" just doesn't cut it.

It's a fine line. The important thing is to emphasise that there was nothing unique about Germany or the Nazi party. What happened there could happen anywhere. If you emphasise the Germanness of the Holocaust, you risk casting it as a uniquely German phenomenon.

The German people didn't suddenly become evil in 1931, nor did they suddenly become good in 1946. They were perfectly ordinary people who were complicit or active in perpetrating awful atrocities. It happened there and it could happen here. There are people in your life who would, in the wrong circumstances, be perfectly capable of kicking people into cattle cars or gas chambers. They're not psychopaths or monsters, they're just people who do what they're told. That's the awful reality; blaming some aspect of the German character is an easy get-out from confronting that awfulness.

Well written, +1

One could even argue that it did indeed happened "here". Take a look at recent Iraq invasion under President Bush. Least at least 8 years, at cost of 150-650 thousands (!!) of lives lost, about 110,000 civilians included... and what happened other than few street riots and march under White House? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! Average American family continues to live average american life and even as we still don't know why this war was started, life goes on :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

I am not German, but thanks for writing that. Demonizing people is unfortunately the norm, making a well balanced judgment is very rare. Many, many thanks for your writings here.

>The German people didn't suddenly become evil in 1931, nor did they suddenly become good in 1946.

No, they were part of an "superior race" culture both before 1931 and after 1946.

(Not to mention their role in WWI as well).

From the middle of the 19th century, there was a myth in the western world about being a "superior race". For example in France Jules Ferry [0] said "it is a right for the superior races, because they have a duty. They have the duty to civilize the inferior races."

It went much further than skin color differences, my own ancestors in the Western part of France, were called "animals like people" by Parisian politicians during the 19th century.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Ferry#Colonial_expansion

For those who admire Victor Hugo (a French writer of 19th century), he wrote a lot about Africa and their inhabitants (and also of inhabitants of Brittany and Vendée). His views on "inferior people" are absolutely terrifying:

"In the nineteenth century, the white man made true men of black people ; in the twentieth century, Europe will make a world of Africa."

http://www.imagesetmemoires.com/doc/Articles/B29paulhachugo....

See also Kipling and the White Man's Burden. White supremacy was the norm across the western world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden

Did Nazis persecute Christians? My knowledge of German history is very limited, but I remember reading that church supported Hitler.

It complicated...Nazisms did not persecute Christians in general and considered Christianity a part of the German culture. Atheists were persecuted, and so where members of sects like Jehovah's Witnesses. They wanted a church which was subservient to the state, and members of the clergy which opposed this or criticized the party were persecuted just like other political enemies. But the mainstream churches (Germany have both Protestant and Catholic) cooperated with the Nazi government.

Some Nazi ideologues were negative towards Christianity, but in general the system were positive towards "German Christianity".

Yes, especially with the condemnation of Nazism with the Mit brennender Sorge encyclical, which was distributed in 1937.

Not at the level of the Jew, but Christian organisations were suppressed and many priests were deported in camps.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Cathol...

Your comment is a perfect example of what the parent was commenting on. The notion that a few select Germans misled the rest of Germany and brought upon the Holocaust is unfounded. WW2 and the Holocaust began because of a confluence between the German government, it's citizens, and its culture.

I could be misinterpreting your comment. Are you saying the the citizenry in Germany were complicit in the facilitation of the Holocaust?

Of course they were.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/books/up-in-smoke-goes-...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-...

One of the heaviest anti-semitic places in Europe, then and now.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16678772

http://forward.com/news/world/188764/german-hate-mail-comes-...

I read through each of those articles.

It indicates a systematic desensitization that occured over time.

Additionally, the article that purports current-day Germany as the heaviest anti-semetic place in Europe, with a few anecdotes, mentions Berlin's thriving Jewish population - one of the few places in the world with such an increase.

I do see many parallels to the current behaviors in the US, unfortunately.

>Additionally, the article that purports current-day Germany as the heaviest anti-semetic place in Europe, with a few anecdotes, mentions Berlin's thriving Jewish population - one of the few places in the world with such an increase.

Isn't that orthogonal? There was a huge Jewish community in Germany leading to 1933 as well -- up to 1940 or so.

I'm going to assume a charitable interpretation of your question and simply reply "yes."

You'd be surprised.

There are such things as continuity of state, and also a continuity of culture.

Especially if post-WWII it never sat well with the locals that they lost the war, or that they were in the wrong.

Token gestures like making "mein kampf" illegal post-facto are a dime a dozen.

Especially since most of the post-WWII political and business establishment, in the highest positions, were fervent nazi party members and high ranking officials before 1945:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorshi...

When I was in school, concentration camps were always described as German (no references to Polish or anything). My kids aren't old enough to go to school, but I doubt that this changed tbh.

Yes, Nazis are mentioned when that time is discussed, but never in my experience to avoid a connection between this country and the deeds done.

German national pride, patriotism, is very very low (I personally don't feel any attachment to this country apart from the fact that I know some places and speak the language).

> "For example, average Dutch will not tell you"

How are the Dutch involved now? Is that a weird "I know 'German' is 'Deutsch' in German" mistake? Or are you randomly talking about people from the Netherlands at that point?

> Whats interesting in recent years it came up that children in Germany were learning about "Polish concentration camps", highly alluding that those places had more to do with polish people than with Germans (that they were of polish evil invention and ran by polish people).

Source? I really don't think anything like this is taught in German schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_contro...

Well, it's bad that the term has been used in the media. Probably more carelessness than evil intent, but you never now.

However, I have never heard it used in schools. German children will learn in school that these camps were German.

How do the Dutch come into play here? I am confused.

Daniel Goldhagen does a good job of illustrating the involvement of everyday Germans in the Holocaust in his book "Hitler's Willing Executioners."[0]

This book has received a lot of criticism from historians but it contains a lot of fascinating information.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioner...

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