Working at a startup sucks | Hacker News Reader

Working at a startup sucks

laurentk.posterous.com

48 pointsbjonathan27 comments

The more I think about this the more I think that the startup community has evolved a peculiar brand of hazing, in which small groups of diverse young men attempt to forge powerful emotional connections for pursuing mutual goals by subjecting themselves to absolutely unnecessary and artificial torment and humiliation. The hazing is then paraded around as a badge of perverse pride -- a mix of "we're tougher than anyone else" and "nobody else really understands us, because no one else has gone through it."

I agree, but I don't think that this pattern is peculiar, nor is it restricted to the startup community. It's a very common pattern in tech, in big companies and academia as well as startups. I assume that this attitude is a big part of the culture that keeps game developers going, for example.

And it extends to other fields. The finance guys on Wall Street and the Chicago Board of Trade do it. Lawyers do it. Medical interns do it.

Yep, I've experienced it first-hand in the game industry - it's bizarre when it feels like you're the only one who notices what's really going on. But especially in the startup world it seems like you're pretty free not to go down that route. But maybe once you've had your fair share of failure it's the only thing left you feel you can be somewhat proud of, so you cling to it.

I imagine startups (especially when you're watching your money shrinking every day) can induce desperation, and when you're desperate, working crazy hours seems logical. You feel like the world is closing in around you... you have to do something

I think minor forms of hazing can play an important role in teams. It is important to know how your teammates, coworkers, etc, will react when the shit hits the fan, and artificially inducing a similar situation can be a useful indicator. This can go too far, certainly, but lets not discount it completely offhand.

I've always considered serving as a conscript in the Air Force to be a huge asset. Specifically because you have no need for further hazings .. :-)

Hazing is a good word for it. It's as if we're all plagued with a tiny bit of masochism.

> It's as if we're all plagued with a /heavy dose/ of masochism.

Fixed that for you. ;>

Back on topic -- it's not actually surprising that this happens. Shared mildly traumatic experiences, especially ones where there is a visible common enemy, are an excellent way to unite people. That's why the military shaves your head and your DI is a hardcase. It's also why co-founders either founder or become really, really good friends. Even if the startup fails, that friendship may have been worth it.

I agree with you with the fix, but saying that's the primary reason for the military to shave your head...

I don't think so, military shaves heads because long hair brings you a lot of problems in war. From hair in your wounds that will bring infection(the reason pro cyclist shave), to all kinds of parasites that attach to hair in non first world countries, to the time it takes to clean it to be presentable, to making people look different(that's the reason of uniforms too, everybody feels part of the same whole).

Hair is a status symbol too.

Having been in a couple of startups, I can say the powerful emotional connections are certainly there. But with a burn rate and competition, there is an urgency that can drive the team.

And as a long-time programmer, I can testify to the fact that there are tasks that often have a very long restart cost--thus, it is compelling to keep working long into the night.

But then again, I grew up on a wheat farm, and in the summer, particularly during harvest, you worked until the grain was damp from the evening, and started in again as soon as the sun evaporated the dew. 100 hour weeks were the norm. This schedule was necessary, because your income comes in during a 21-day to four week period, and if that september storm is early, you lose a significant fraction of your crop and thus your yearly income. For a time, my dad also had irrigated land. This required resetting the flow, and the best he could do for sleep was to set up a four-hour flow, max.

I have an uncle, now retired, who raised cows. During February, he pretty much slept in the barn, as there was not much you could control about when the calves would drop. Pretty demanding when the temperature was 20 or 30 below.

These childhood experiences have probably damaged my ability to sync with this modern non-agricultural perspective. To me, the artificial idea of a "job" is still kind of amusing.

But from a team-building perspective, useful for non-solo startups, I think this can be useful and often productive.

Working at a startup sucks

So does pushing a cart, to a horse.

The problem is that OP has it backwards. He complains about how hard it is to do all the things you don't have to do.

You don't have to endure multiple "No's" finding investment; you can bootstrap or use friends and family.

You don't have to endure multiple "No's" trying to convince clients to accept your offering. You can find out what they need and build that.

You don't have to hire. If Version 1.0 of what you're building can't be built by one or two people, you may want to rethink what you're doing.

Starting a business and building software is tough enough when you do first things first. No need to pile on.

Hey Edward, We're at v2, or stage 2. Hacked a small prototype to test user feedback, spoke to potential clients to get their "reception" to the idea, built it ourselves, ... And then and only then, when it passed these tests we went "serious".

But you're right on on all your point indeed !

The author also mentions that negative things or problems are almost never blogged about.

I guess thats at least partially because the founders are busy fixing things and have not enough time / patience to blog about it. Positive blogs can be seen as marketing efforts and justify taking half a day off for it, but do negative ones too?

Hey Chris, I'm the author. That was exactly the point, fed up of reading the "it's fantastic, we rock !!" posts. So just an honest feedback on our first 6 months on my 3rd startup ....

So in the spirit of the article, what would you say are negative things about running a startup for you? Or is it all roses?

> You don't have to endure multiple "No's" trying to convince clients to accept your offering. You can find out what they need and build that.

True story here:

Client: I want it to feel like a storybook, complete with an opening page that has a child talking, and lots of animals around to make it look Snow White-ish.

Me: OK, here's exactly that.

Client: Yes, that is exactly like a storybook and has everything I asked for, but — nah, I don't want that. You're fired. I've hired another guy. Here's his design: It's a tall pink box with a bunch of unsearchable green text inside JPEGs and a couple of photos of flowers randomly dropped in.

The moral of the story is that asking people what they want does not guarantee a yes.

Sensational link-bait title.

A better title would be "Working at a startup is hard"

Here's an idea: Start a website where you suggest to bloggers a better title for their blog posts.

Seriously, I think the whole blogosphere could better counter one another's hype through your solid, middle of the road editorializing.

This might be a fun weekend project, heh.

In summary, hard work is hard.

I know HN is targeted towards the startup crowd, but do we constantly have to vote up these self-aggrandizing, self-congratulating posts about how it takes some kind of special breed of human to work hard for a year or two?

Hey aminuit The post isn't especially self-congratulating. Actually it's almost the contrary... Hard work is hard, whether you're a pin pusher, an agile railer or biz guy trying to make it. The idea behind the post is especially this: we are ordinary man facing ordinary (hard) challenges, and it's meant as a reminder for aspiring entrepreneurs who only see the bright techcrunch-like side of the coin. Thoughts?

Bring on the 4hr work week.

It sure can suck, but it's all choices. You don't have to get investment, don't have to hire employees. You can do consulting on the side so you're not poor. You can even take holidays if you plan for it.

So a lot of it is just down to planning.

It's pretty similar to having a baby I think. It can suck sometimes, but it's pretty much the best experience you can ever have.

Good luck for the release in Sept :)

Hi Axod, Yes, it's down to planning and foreseeing, true. And there's two reason I wrote that post like this: 1) to poke the bear, and specifically address the young aspiring entrepreneurs who only read about the good side of it. 2) not hiring, doing consulting on the side, not getting investment is a great way to go, the 37 signals way. we chose the other alternative to get where we wanna go faster. future will tell if we were right :))

Anyway thx for the comment, and finger crossed for the sept release :)

I think he's focusing on all the hardships instead of why he's doing it in the first place. Working at a startup is a choice.

It's a choice that many people trivialize. The point of the post was, I think, a bit of a warning to think about startup life seriously before diving in.

You're totally right, the daily slog is tough, but the spurts of success or the rush of failure make it worthwhile. If we wanted safety, we'd get a 9 to 5.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com