Training exercise boosts brain power, Johns Hopkins researchers say | Hacker News Reader

Training exercise boosts brain power, Johns Hopkins researchers say

hub.jhu.edu

Do you know the best exercise for your brain? Actual exercise. Running increases neurogenesis[1] more than anything else.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/04/well/move/for-your-brains...

The link does not compare running versus other forms of exercise. It compares running vs no exercise. "Running increases neurogenesis[1] more than anything else." is not a finding in the article.

Here are a few more articles for you. Take your pick. ;)

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/02/17/which-type-of-exer...

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/can-running-make-y...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/well/move/jogging-the-bra...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/well/move/running-as-the-...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/well/move/moving-when-you...

Thank you for those (and the first link especially). That's more in line with what you said originally.

That said, it is a bit suspect that it's always the same reporter writing about this topic. I'll have to dig into this some more, thanks!

Wow, nice observation, it's bizarre that they are all from the same author. I wonder if that's due to domain familiarity, small sample size, or some more nefarious reason (she does have a book published on the subject?). I wonder how common this sort of thing is.

Doesn’t seem that unusual to me — she’s a columnist for the New York Times, and needs subject matter to write about. It only makes sense to have interests that are then reflected in multiple weeks’ columns. You can see her bio at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Gretchen-Reynolds/e/B001KHP9G2

People who exercise often have strong biases confirming the efficacy of the type of exercise that they enjoy most.

Weight training, running, Crossfit, yoga, martial arts - I've heard enthusiasts of all of these forms of exercise claim that it's absolute best form of exercise that makes all other unnecessary.

Aside from any journalistic biases, I assume that the author really, really likes running.

Does anyone have a similar study done for other types of cardiovascular exercise? I never run but have a hybrid MTB I got a few months ago and ride a few miles 3-5 days a week, but if its not as effective as jogging i'll start to switch it up a little.

Cross training never hurts. That bike will be better on your joints in the long run.

Also you can see/ go more places on a bike.

Also, they used a mice model. Even otherwise, assuming the study showed it to be the case in humans as well, that means absolutely nothing. Science simply presents a theory that fits a particular data-set. It doesn't mean its an established fact, or that it applies to your particular biology, or even that the effect is seen in every person.

Amusingly, I would not be surprised to find some people need both. In particular, exercise is boring. Very very boring. Anything that can help with concentration during boring tasks is useful.

Obviously, that is my experience. Ymmv

This was how I felt about lifting weights. I know about all of it's amazing health benefits, but you've got 3-5 minutes rest between sets, with most programs having you do at least 9 sets total. That's not even counting the time added on if someone else asks to work in sets with you. Plus the need for a spotter when benching.

Point is, I ended up getting into bouldering. If you want to send a bouldering problem, you have to spend a while actually planning out your movements, because if you waste time trying to figure out your next move in the middle of all but the easiest problems, you'll run out of energy before completing the problem. Like lifting, you need rest time between climbs, but you can spend that time planning out your next attempt. Only downside is that indoor bouldering walls tend to be crowded most of the time, and outdoor bouldering can require a bit of a drive depending on where you live.

Still, I find it a lot more stimulating than lifting; I actually look forward to bouldering, while lifting still felt like a chore even after 8 months of doing it.

edit: I should add that I've only been bouldering regularly for about 2 months, and mostly at an indoor gym.

On the contrary, lifting weights has been one of the most fruitful additions to my life. I started around 5 years ago and it visibly changed my body in a year; something which I've wanted for a long time. Every time, its a thrill to be able to lift more weights, to complete the reps and know that I'm stronger than I was a month ago.

I'm guessing what bothers you the most is the idea of doing the same thing over and over again, which is a fair criticism. Generally I listen to a podcast. In the beginning, I used to go with a friend so it didn't become too boring.

> idea of doing the same thing over and over again

You can change your exercises every 2-3 months otherwise your muscle will hit a saturation point or start facing fatigue due to same type of work out

Unless you're competing and pushing for that last 5%, there's no need to rest 3-5 min. 1-1.5 min should be plenty except maybe the last set or 2 if you're really going for it.

Yes, you can even go as low as 20-30 seconds if your goal is not competitive powerlifting and more aesthetics, I wasted way too much time for inferior results before switching to short rest time

Alternate working either opposing or totally unconnected muscle groups and there's no reason to rest any in between sets, which has the added benefit of turning it into a pretty incredible cardio workout at the same time.

Not entirely true. Once you're at a reasonable strength level simply switching muscle groups will not provide adequate rest for your CNS to perform your sets optimally.

Like I said above short rest times are not for powerlifting purposes but works perfectly in higher rep ranges.

This http://borgefagerli.com/myo-reps-in-english/ works very well for me, great results and very short workouts.

I usually have a rest between sets cause I'm tired :o

An alternative to bouldering is sport climbing. I find it offers a much better balance between the physical and mental parts.

Bouldering routes are only a couple of moves so the focus tends to be on raw power; climbing routes are longer and require more time planning and developing an optimal/working strategy, which can be more engaging and interesting.

> but you've got 3-5 minutes rest between sets

No you don't. You don't have to. You can have 90 seconds between sets if you want. Just stay consistent, gym session after gym session. Who has time for a 5 minute rest between sets? If you're doing warm-up sets you'll be in the gym for hours!

3-5 minutes is deal for strength training. So really it depends on your goals.

that's simply not true.

I picked up bouldering a few weeks ago and I love it! I wish I'd learned about it sooner. I've never experienced such a satisfying muscle ache before.

Seems really fun! Couple reservations I have. Do you have to wear a harness? Are people going to be telling me what to do? Isn’t it expensive?

1. No, not for bouldering, though it helps to have climbing shoes.

2. It's generally considered impolite to give advice on how to climb something, unless the person asks.

3. Most bouldering/climbing gyms have small workout areas in addition to the walls, and memberships that aren't a lot more expensive than a regular gym.

Thanks! I’ll check it out. So you’re saying I can just show up and boulder or are there lines? Or appointments?

You can just show up any time the gym is open. There are bouldering walls, just find a problem (what bouldering "routes" are called) that no one is on and go for it. Gym bouldering is usually pretty social, most people will be happy to answer any questions you have about anything, easier problems to try or techniques, etc.

There are programs with shorter rest times between sets, e.g. German Volume Training (60 to 90 secs). And you can do dumbell bench press without a spotter.

But I totally agree, more "practical" excercise like bouldering is much more fun.

If that rest time between sets is timed, it's a perfect opportunity to drill a second language in Anki, or Duolingo. Get your memory reps in between your lifting reps.

> 3-5 minutes rest between sets

That is a lot of rest time. Try to keep it between 30-45 secs

"exercise is boring".

You are clearly very unimaginative when it comes to exercise. I find the gym pretty bloody boring. But whitewater kayaking, mountain biking, rock climbing easily beat sitting in front of a computer. If those are too much go for a hike in the mountains and take in some scenery. Or learn to surf.

Or cycle to work. I get an hours solid exercise every day doing that and save myself time and money as a result.

>You are clearly very unimaginative when it comes to exercise. I find the gym pretty bloody boring. But whitewater kayaking, mountain biking, rock climbing easily beat sitting in front of a computer. If those are too much go for a hike in the mountains and take in some scenery. Or learn to surf.

Those aren't routine activities, unless you are fortunately situated.

Soccer is available just about everywhere at just about ever age range and is great exercise and is stimulating mentally as well.

Admittedly I have to drive 3 hours to get to the closest whitewater to where I live. But cycling is pretty easy to do anywhere. There are loads of interesting ways to exercise, I just listed ones that I happen to have done. Like I say, you sound very unimaginative.

Unless you live in say Salt Lake City or near a national park, these aren't activities you can do everyday on a schedule.

Cycling is fine, as long as you live in a place that supports it well enough (so a Deep South city with no bike trails might not be a good idea).

You can combine approaches. I'm a "weekend warrior" with climbing, hiking etc., and my passion for those activities spurred me to train during the week on a schedule. I'd gym climb or work out at home with dumbbells, so that I could do harder objectives during the weekend.

This can be a gateway drug, and cause you to change your whole lifestyle and move to a place with such activities in abundance.

Well, I guess you don't have kids yet. Lifestyles need to be sustainable. For many, machines in the gym downstairs is the only thing that fits (many don't have that).

Why the "yet"? It's not a given that you need to have kids. Plenty of people on the planet already.

Oh, yeah. Solution is to never have kids.

Ya, that plan doesn't always work out :)

I do quite a few of those things. I still get quite bored with them. :) Biking to work only works for me because it becomes an obligation. And, if I had my bus pass with me, I would easily take the bus on more days than not.

Also again, my point was that getting good at exercising is getting good at a relatively quiet mindset that many people deprive themselves of. So, I believe there to be a feedback loop between the two ideas.

You could try jiu-jitsu. I've yet to meet a person who could honestly say that getting choked out is "boring".

I was going to write exactly this, but you beat me to it. My whole family (me, spouse, two kids aged 5 and 8) train four days a week and we all love it. I get bored easily with other exercise, but so far have never had that problem with Jiu Jitsu.

> In particular, exercise is boring. Very very boring.

I regularly spend 2-4hrs on a road bike and I've never found it boring and I have a low boredom threshold generally (outside of programming).

It's just a case of finding your niche.

> 2-4hrs on a road bike and I've never found it boring

Same here, which is a bit surprising whenever I think about it. Especially since I never listen to music/podcasts/anything, it's always the same place [0], and it's an out-and-back route only. But I hate driving, which seems like a relatively similar activity... no idea.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_%26_Old_Dominion_Ra...

If you need even more stimulation, Mountain Biking! With Audibooks!

My preferred workout is climb with audiobook, descend with silence, rinse and repeat.

Its funny I have just started biking semi-seriously in the last year and I haven't even gotten to the point where I am even listening to music while I am getting my skills up. Do you listen to books riding singletrack? I find the challenge of singletrack at a reasonable speed (for myself, dog slow for most serious riders) is more than enough to keep me entertained.

Not downhill, definitely. Single track is more than enough. But, uphill, I’m not real quick. A benefit of audiobooks, in my opinion, is that you have less awareness of the passage of time. A nasty habit I have is knowing (memorizing) how Long songs are and measuring my time by how many songs I’ve heard. That makes long climbs on the mountain bike worse, rather than better.

Ah, climbs do make sense, that is a situation where music or books would help me too. There aren't too many climbs near where I am so most of what I'm doing is more or less flat with small uphills and downhills.

I did when I was younger and my theory is that one of the reasons some people have trouble with endurance exercise is the same reason they can't do yoga or meditation. It's just too much time alone with your own thoughts and it's scary for some people.

I'm not convinced that it's the actual running that's predominantly responsible for the neurogenisis (although we know that exercise causes an uptick in HGH so it's plausible). It may just be that much time with nothing else to do but think. Essentially it's walking meditation.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsVzKCk066g and this book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316113514/ref=as_li_tl?ie... suggest that it’s movement.

They talk about how complex movement in creatures typically correlates with the size of the brain.

Anecdotally, I’ve been doing the Cambridge Brain Sciences[1] tests every so often over the past few months to see how various things affect my score (mainly because I wanted to see which nootropics were most effective) and the best scores always occurred on days where I got exercise and the worst scores were in days where I didn’t and also got little sleep.

My absolute best scores (99.5 percentile, although the next days scores were much, much lower and my average has been about 50-60ish) were on a day when I got approx 1.5 hours of brisk walking (throughout the day, not all at once), 8+ hours sleep the night before and I had been taking nootropics. I imagine diet also plays a part, but I’ve not yet experimented. I’m also not sure f sleep or exercise affects me most positive, but together they certainly make a huge difference.

Nothing conclusive, for sure, but it does make me think that exercise/movement may play a big part.

[1] https://cambridgebrainsciences.com

The youtube video mentions BDNF. The hilarious 'Exercise boosts brain power' video https://player.vimeo.com/video/16335377 of http://brainrules.net/brain-rules-video says "BDNF are created when you exercise".

Highly recommended book BTW, IMHO a must for anyone who learns as it explains scientific brain research in layman's terms. It explains how we humans are ruled by our brains. When you understand your brains better, you can make better use of them. In conjunction with Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength by Roy Baumeister, a golden couple.

Thanks, I’ll check that out.

I've always preferred my own company, not been able to get away from everything for a few hours would drive me nuts.

I stopped riding with the cycling club because it became too much of a social obligation, I like doing 60-70 miles on my own, stopping for a coffee somewhere and just watching world go by.

I don't even record my routes anymore, just distance and speed.

This is my pet hypothesis. Obligating myself to just a 30 minute bike ride home has been hugely successful with giving me "thinking" time. The hard climb sorta destroys this. But overall it works quite well.

I don’t know about that.

I loathe endurance exercises - I regularly combine a book -and- music to get me through the treadmill.

However, I love meditating and archery (which I do traditional style, which is honestly a form of meditation itself.)

I couldn't do it. I've ridden my road bike for about 2 hours at a time at various points in life (outside of just commuting daily) and I just get bored out of my mind. I get bored biking to and from work. I take routes with a lot more traffic now because it keeps me more mentally engaged with not getting killed and I find myself less focused on the physical discomfort.

This is the biggest problem for me when biking/jogging and i've found that I can mix my meditation time with it but that only goes so far. I've thought of putting a treadmill in front of my TV so I can jog and watch a few episodes of a show to fix the boredom problem.

Then go offroad. No need for real mountain-mountain biking, just being off the pavement will keep you more busy. Although if you want to ride on the road more, maybe try same techniques as for beginners' meditation?

You are strengthening my point, right?

And don't get me wrong, I bike quite often. I find for myself, I basically have to obligate myself to some distance. If I have a bus pass, I'm not doing that 400 ft climb home. If I don't have somewhere to go, I'll just read a book instead. And I claim that I do enjoy biking.

It is only boring if you have a restless mind that wants to constantly preoccupy itself with distractions and run away from the slightest discomfort instead of being here and now. With some ZEN focus any activity can be interesting when done with full awareness. Sorry couldn't resist. Carry on.

I also thought "someone needs to do some mindfulness meditation practice or something and learn how to deal with that" as well. People rarely want to hear about it though.

Try some exercise in VR.

"Thrill Of The Fight", "Holopoint", "GORN" or similar games are a lot of fun and are at least a moderate workout. I've literally just finished a half-hour session of GORN, I'm fairly sweaty, and I wasn't bored once.

(I also recommend similar things in IRL with Actual People, but I'm aware that those tend to be both more intimidating and harder to fit into a pre-set schedule.)

I know it looks kind of stupid, but DDR was a wicked nice workout last a certain level (medium or so). And you never get bored because there is always something you haven't accomplished.

I used to think that running was boring and that I'd do more of it if it were less boring. At the time I was running on a treadmill while watching a TV show. But every time I hit the end of my run and went into the 5 minute cooldown, I'd find myself becoming engrossed in the show and not want to end. The difference? I wasn't exercising as hard any more. I was getting tired, not bored.

Now I run outside for sometimes five times as long as I was running back then, without podcasts or TV shows, and I never get bored. I do run slower, though. Try going slower next time! And going outside in a straight line or long loop. I get very bored/frustrated if I have to do laps to make my distance. Of course YMMV too.

One great alternative to running are team sports like soccer or basketball. You can get cardiovascular excercise similar to HIIT training, while also having fun. The downside being that injuries can happen more often than during jogging.

Yeah, when playing soccer for fitness you really need to think about how you are going to play because it can be easy to get hurt. Sometimes when I am hurt I play my best because I play smarter and don't overextend. Position yourself well and be strategic and sometimes you'll be better than if you go all out physically.

That's why I love cycling on a road bike, at a steady 17mph it's rarely boring because the scenery changes quickly, I used to run but since I don't drive it was largely the same places over and over.

You need to find a sport that you like. I find simply running boring, but when done in a sport is a completely different thing.

Apart from the gym, I play soccer three times a week and it is nothing by fun. Switching volleyball session during the winter.

One of the best things I did both for my health and productivity was exercising + sports.

I've found the same thing. I still run ~once a week (and find it boring), but I find competitive sports to be pretty engaging.

There's always something to think about while, say, running.

Is my posture correct? Are my feet hitting the ground well? Is this a good pace? And lots and lots of self talk about not shirking the next effort (30s hard running, hill run etc etc).

Boring doesn't mean nothing to do. It means no interest in what is there.

Not shockingly, people good at setting somewhat mundane objectives and iterating on them are good at both intelligence and exercise. They probably feed each other. :)

> Boring doesn't mean nothing to do. It means no interest in what is there.

Fair enough :)

Different people are different: I find running almost painfully tedious.

In my experience, how boring an exercise is seems to be inversely related to your aptitude with that exercise. Running started out to be extrememly boring. I would listen to audiobooks while out on a trail. After a few months, I would notice that I'd miss sentences here and there. If I tried harder to concentrate on my otherwise very interesting audiobook, my running pace would suffer considerably. Eventually, I couldn't do books any more and switched to music. After a couple of years, I found the music distracting, and my pace increased when I did away with it. This also seems to be a theme I've noticed while weightlifting in the gym. The more proficient I am with a movement, the more my brain is being engaged.

Running certainly started out painful and boring for me. But after a year, things changed. I started to look forward to it, and it ceased being boring.

I do my best thinking while running, and make use of it to solve problems, write articles, etc.

Lifting weights, however, remains painful and boring :-( and I think that is because it requires mental focus. Running does not, you can just drift off into something that interests you.

By default exercise is boring, but you can fix that. Headphones/earbuds for music or to listen to audiobooks. I find that if I don't do that, I notice the exertion and discomfort a lot more and that limits how far/long I can run.

You can also get your exercise from exciting activities like sports or Dance Dance Revolution (but your experience may vary!).

Boredom is probably a really good thing in many ways. A constant need for stimulation isn't healthy and makes it harder to do boring but otherwise necessary chores.

Plus there's the whole creativity thing when the mind is at rest.

> exercise is boring

Yep. So listen to podcasts during. Seminars About Long Term Thinking and In Our Time being my favorites.

Boring and painful. Seems about right.

Boring, because you frequently have to do something in addition to exercising to make the time spent exercising interesting. See the myriad of sibling comments.

Painful, because my exercise as a youth (competitive swimming) badly damaged most of my major joints, making anything but the lightest of impact workouts painful (which leads, sadly, back to point 1).

What if you did this memory game while running?!

"More than anything else"? Link?

more than swimming? seems surprising

When the first studies by Jaeggie on IQ came out a few years ago I hit dual n back pretty hard trying to improve my IQ. I don't think I got any smarter, but I did notice a few things.

Pros

My attention got better, I was less easily distracted.

My executive function was better, I made better choices in life.(less junk food, fewer beers)

My thoughts slipped less often, I had those "what was I just talking about" moments less and less frequently.

Cons

Sometimes I felt overly focused for social situations. Like the feeling you get when you've been studying for 4 hours, and then try to the shoot the shit with someone, and you end up being too rigid/serious and instead of playful/fun.

Same. I learned about it while in uni and got into it thinking that it'd help me improve my academic performance. While I don't know of a good way to measure if I have really increased my intelligence, I did noticed that I could focus longer on my tasks: studying, coding, solving problems, etc.

Nowadays, I could study for a couple of hours before going for a short break. I know that some of you don't think that's good enough but for someone who used to struggle with procrastination and being "easily distracted", I am happy with the result.

James - that's pretty interesting. Could you please share what SW (or other tools) did you use to train for dual-n-back?

I used http://www.soakyourhead.com/ and this one which is linked elsewhere in the thread. https://sourceforge.net/projects/brainworkshop/files/brainwo...

I doubt the subtle differences between different dual-n-back matter.

I've found this to be the best iOS app for dual n-back https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/iq-boost/id286574399

Those are all indicators of intelligence. Whether you have good executive control due to some "intrinsic" intelligence or due to some conditioning, the net effect is the same.

Not being sociable and fun at parties is a sign of intelligence?

Charisma doesn't come from the liver. (believe that was Yudkowsky)

Are you kidding? Did the "bright, socially awkward person" stereotype get put out to pasture while I wasn't looking?

That's a folk stereotype, not a rigorous demonstration that "intelligence" (in the appropriate sense) must cause worse social interaction, as your comment would imply.

Edit: To clarify, even accepting that (some narrow definition of) intelligence (associated with math) is anti-correlated with social skills, that wouldn't imply that someone who is already "good at parties" should worsen their social skills by improving their intelligence.

Edit2: I agree that my earlier comment was poorly worded, and that, if you knew nothing else you should expect "conventionally smart" people to have less social skills. But that wouldn't seem to be relevant here, for the above reasons. And charismatic people are intelligent, in a sense.

Ah, well, I wasn't even trying to imply that anyways. I was looking at the pros: better attention, better executive control, better focus. Whether he's great at parties is totally beyond my comprehension.

If the change resulted in you being less able to do what you did before because of a higher mental load from the environment, that would be evidence against having improved intelligence.

pretty much my experience too. I never got that good at dual n-back (4 I think, and only if I was well-rested) and my IQ didn't improve, but I did find an increase in the ability to relate recent events to the present and keep track of recent events. For example, during meetings I was much more able to recite back to someone things they had said earlier in the meeting in the context of what we were presently discussing.

So the working memory exercise... improved your short term memory? :)

But it is good to hear that it worked well for you

Interesting! I think I'd rather be dumb than boring, so this game is not for me.

You summed up the 21st century. In a nutshell.

paging gwern!

* for context, he's got a lot on his site about n-back:

https://www.gwern.net/DNB-FAQ

https://www.gwern.net/DNB-meta-analysis

This is interesting, and kind of odd.

The article claims the failure of previous brain-training studies came from choosing the wrong techniques, but the evidence on dual n-back specifically has been conflicted for quite a while; this isn't the first study on it.

What's interesting here is that a lot of the best results on dual n-back in the past have concluded that it's mostly promising to fight cognitive decline or boost recovery. Previous work on boosting memory in young, mentally-healthy people has come up with basically nothing.

I'm hoping that this is the better and more-powerful study, and that n-back does boost general working memory. But the cynic in me is wondering if the chosen working-memory metric was simply more vulnerable to training effects from n-back than from complex span.

https://www.gwern.net/DNB-meta-analysis

My understanding of the literature is largely that n-back training doesn’t generalize effectively, mostly just improving ones ability to perform n-back exercises.

Mine also. This article implied they did see generalization, at least to other working memory tests - but I can't find the full text to check what they used.

The only paper I’ve seen so far with any generalization used timing feedback to incentivize closer attention. Generalized Outcomes were believed to be due to improved executive function/attentiveness, not memory, which is what the time pressure aimed for.

I thought the unique aspect here was comparing techniques against each other. Not that the techniques hadn't been studied.

It didn't seem like a great distinction to me, but maybe it eliminates control issues when comparing two studies of different techniques vs comparing two different techniques in one study.

Yeah, I think the head-to-head between techniques is what's novel about the paper. But what confused me is that they got a strong positive off dual n-back in the first place; other studies of that exact technique have regularly come up ambiguous-to-negative.

The studies on Dual-N-Back increasing IQ have been all over the place. Some positive some negative. With the larger more careful trials coming up negative.

But IQ isn't working memory, attention, or executive function. And the findings on Dual-N-Back and working memory are less ambiguous and more positive.

Also there have been some more interesting studies done on Dual-N-Back in terms of changing Type 1 dopamine receptor density, as well as volume changes in certain parts of the pre-frontal cortex. So it really does seem like it's doing something even if that doesn't translate into an IQ change.

> the findings on Dual-N-Back and working memory are less ambiguous and more positive

Huh, I guess this is what I was missing. I had the impression that even on working memory in particular, dual-n-back had mostly failed on a practical level - it just created training effects that broke the validity of certain tests.

If that's not the case, I'm suddenly much more interested.

This is actually a really common improv warm up. The group that's about to perform circles up, and one person says a word to someone else in the circle. That second person then passes the word to someone else, and so on. Eventually, after around 50 words, someone spontaneously passes what was said to them back and you start trying to go back down. The benefits are many, everyone practices focusing, listening and trusting their teammates. It can also be funny, as near the bottom opinions on what the true order is can vary quite a bit.

I don't understand. Isn't it just the same word you started off with? Actually, I probably misunderstand since it sounds like the whisper game but with public passings which obviously would make no sense.

I haven't played this game myself, but from the description I suspect that "passes the word to someone else" should have been "comes up with and passes a different word to someone else". You end up with a stack of words where no two adjacent words are the same. Players might also try to avoid adding non-adjacent duplicate words to the stack.

Eventually, someone decides it's time to start popping backward through the stack. They respond with the same word that they were just passed and the group tries to remember the right words to continue popping back down the stack, one person and word at a time. This gets harder "near the bottom" of the stack because it's been longer since those words were spoken.

But this way you would only hear one word- the one that was passed to you. Unless it went through several rounds, in which case everybody would have their own stack.

Ah, I should not have stuck with the original post's use of the word "pass". I was envisioning each word being announced publicly, and the speaker designating the next person with eye contact or pointing or something.

In this way, everyone does have their own stack and if their hearing and memory are perfect, everyone has the same stack contents. In practice, memory corruption causes the players' stacks to disagree more at the bottom as time goes on, but agree reasonably well toward the top. If a word is misheard, some players might even disagree about the current value at the top of the stack.

Since they used the word "pass" maybe the OP does mean it's private, in which case it's a pretty different game than what I'm guessing at here. In my version, during the second half of the game, the current speaker could designate any player to be the next to pop and announce their top of the stack.

If the passing of words is private, then players need to remember who they interacted with at various points in the first half so they can try to form those same pairings again in reverse. And I guess the signal for the mid-game reversal point would require whispering the word they just got, back into the ear of the same player who just gave it to them.

Edit: Ohhh, I neglected the fact that they "circle up" in the OP. That solves the problem of getting the pairings right. You know exactly who you interacted with if you're all in the same spots in the circle and only interact with your neighbors. Okay, the word passing must be private. Which makes sense if you're hanging out behind the curtain at a theater and you need to be quiet. I wonder if the game that I've imagined would be any good.

Each word is pushing onto, and then popping off of a stack.

When is it popping off?

Sounds like they make several rounds, each with a different word (not OP, just guessing).

We (my roommates and I) used to do this while tossing a frisbee in college. It’s amazing how we could do hundreds of associations and then go backwards without missing any.

I don't know where the articles source is but this linked study says there are no improved affects with with dual n back training.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4820261/

This meta analysis says there's a small affect

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-014-0699-x

When I see these exercises, I think it would be more fun to just play the drums to boost my brain. Here's an article collating studies on rhythm playing and brain effects:

https://www.google.com.pe/amp/s/m.mic.com/articles/amp/89363...

(i do play drums, synth, and guitar.)

I don't think the same parts of the brain are used. I can play Simon pretty well but the short examples given in the video were mentally taxing for me. With drumming, in what situation would you need to remember the nth last drum you hit and what would the second variable be? And who's gonna tell you if you got it right or wrong?

>With drumming

Drumming, in a band context, is all about remembering certain drum patters, combinating them mentally so they fit the music as well as possible, and then playing them with perfect timing...

... all of this in real time, and as an endless while(song is not over) loop!!

>And who's gonna tell you if you got it right or wrong?

You don't want to make the bassist, the singer, the guitar player, and the keyboard player all get angry at you at the same time for making the group sound bad!

Anyone have tricks to boost their memory?

Lately, I've felt my memory has been a little off. I feel like I'm not remembering things I would normally easily remember.

Like the other day, I was trying to remember what they speak in Iran (Farsi) or who the head coach of the Boston Celtics or what was the name of the Scorsese movie with Wahlberg/Damon/Nicholson. These are all subjects I'm very familiar with so it bothered me that I couldn't remember the answers immediately.

Make sure you are getting enough sleep and at least some exercise.

I'll make a shameless plug for my side project, IQ boost. The first Dual N-Back iPhone app. I launched it about 2 weeks after the app store opened.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/iq-boost/id286574399?mt=8

Cool. Does anybody know an app where I can exercise like in the video?

Found this, but I'm sure any N-back will work:

http://brainscale.net/dual-n-back

Also, if you feel like working off of someone else's source:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/brainworkshop/files/brainwo...

Though it seems relatively simple to design.

Yes. Search for dual-n-back in app store. I can go till 6 back without much effort. It gets tougher after.

I may have missed seeing a mention of the work done by Dr. Michael Merzenich[1], professor emeritus at UCSF and an expert on neuroplasticity, who has been showing for many years that mental (and physical) exercises can and do remap parts of the brain to our benefit.

His 2004 TED Talk[2] on neuroplasticity is IMHO well worth watching.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Merzenich

[2]: https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_merzenich_on_the_elastic_b...

The training exercise is Dual N-Back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back#Dual_n-back

I think that the changes of n-back comes with a 30 day training 20 - 30 minutes a day. I create a Melody position n-back Link: http://competicionmental.appspot.com/router?page=melodynback...

Did subjects improve their dual-n-back scores significantly during the exercise regiment? Did they improve on other memory tests? Did they improve in learning tasks?

I get that they got increased brain activity in areas associated with learning and memory, but I'd like to see subjects also improve when directly tested.

Is there any online game for this like shown in the video?

http://brainscale.net/dual-n-back

The first few paragraphs of this article read exactly like spam email. It gets better as it goes, but I still wouldn't trust any links in it.

Wasn't the issue with n-back previously that the Jaeggi study was not replicable?

Did you know that reading on the internet trains your brain to be smarter?? This article is trash.

that's not what the research (or the article) was saying.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com