Comment by misiti3780 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by misiti3780 | Hacker News Reader

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki.

I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of literally everything I cant say, and after the lesson make cards, insert them into Anki, repeat.

I can understand 80% of our conversations perfectly, and we talk for the full hour, rarely breaking into english. Am I speaking perfect italian - no, but I have absolutely no problems communicating. I was recently in Sicily with my family and hanging out with a family that spoke no English and was translating for 8 people in both directions with no problems.

This is the first new language I have learned but it seems the key to me is described in the book

1) start with pronunciation and spelling (Gabe created pronunciation trainers for most languages) 2) Learn some basic verbs (I need, I want, may I, to go, to take, etc) 3) Building up a large list of nouns 4) Start using iTalki with a partner very soon into your journey and keep track of what you dont know.

The state departments says it takes around 400 hours to learn the latin based languages, I believe that seems fairly accurate.

+1 for iTalki and Fluent Forever. There are so many apps out there that give you the illusion of progress (e.g. the author's "74% fluent") but with nothing to show for it. There is no way you can get around practicing speaking and listening if your end-goal is to speak and listen.

I started learning French maybe 6 months ago and have done ~20 hours of iTalki sessions. You'll sound terrible when you start, but that's okay — you're paying them to hear your terrible French/German/Spanish/etc. It's all gets better.

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

Think about how much time you spend a day speaking even your own language in your daily life. Do you think it's 16 hours in a day?

400 hours of practice is a pretty good rule of thumb I think, but that's deliberate practice, not just physically being awake in a country that speaks the language. You need to be engaging in conversation and actively processing things for those 400 hours. Plus it has to be at a practical level. Watching TV in Japanese when you don't know any Japanese doesn't make you much better at the language - your brain isn't really processing anything.

Or to make a music metaphor, you can't really just play with a violin for hundreds of hours and be good. You need a tutor, someone to challenge you at your level and help you make small steps so you slowly get better. Anders Ericsson has done some fascinating research on excellence and the important difference between doing something and deliberate practice at it.

Also, don't mistake being in a country with language immersion. When I was in Paris and knew some French, I would maybe be able to do a few hours a day at best, if I was really trying to engage. Even in English in America, I probably only really talk or engage in conversation for a few hours a day on average. I was in Germany last year for a few weeks when I was around an A1 level and I barely progressed, because the immersion is very surface-level at that stage. You have encounters but it's not really practice - most interactions are too high-level and don't help you because you can't process them.

Absolutely...

Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives.

Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it.

I can't write Spanish, but I can read it. I can write it well enough so that I could probably pass for a mentally handicapped third grader. But, I can speak the language.

Other than some basic phrases, it's the only other spoken language I'm even remotely fluent. (I also sign, ASL specifically, which has been surprisingly handy.)

So, if someone really wants to learn a language, go visit the country where it is spoken and don't hang out with tourists. Learn a few phrases (ordering beer and where is the bathroom are good starters) and you'll pick up the rest.

As near as I can tell, people are very happy to help. I'm not sure if there is some psychological thing to it, but people seem really helpful when you're making a legitimate effort to learn their language.

By fluent, I mean able to understand and convey what is needed and not sound too silly. I'm sure I'm not always using proper Spanish.

"Mí nescito habla Español, no Englais por favor."

That got me started along my journey of Spanish speaking. I'd say I was okay after two weeks. Okay enough to get get around. I was not bad after a month. I was actually able to have a full conversation, without much thought, after about three months.

Also, I'm not sure...

Here's a puzzle for you people into psych stuff.

During my immersion, I would sometimes dream in Spanish. Except, in my dreams, I was fluent. As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent.

What language was I really speaking in my dream?

I've never dreamt, so I'm not sure how dreams work, but maybe you were speaking English but your dream interpreted it as Spanish?

I have no idea. It has puzzled me since then. In my dreams, I was having full conversations about a variety of topics. I probably spoke 1000 words at the time.

That's interesting. I studied ASL for several years in college and got fairly competent at it (volunteered in an integrated elementary school, helped at some Deaf-Blind events, went clubbing with Deaf friends, etc) but have had very few occasions to use it in the last 15 years since graduating. In what situations do you find yourself using it?

A good example would be when I'm out and about and see a deaf person trying to converse with others. I'll indicate that I learned a little sign language and translate for them.

Another would be when I am out and about and I notice someone who is deaf. I'm not the least bit bashful, so I'll wave and get their attention to let them know that I can sign. This leads to a conversation, pretty much every time.

It's not like they have a wide variety of people to converse with. So, they are usually quite happy to do so.

I also used to work with municipalities and there were a number of occasions where a contact person would actually be deaf. Municipalities are generally more open to hiring people who have hearing issues. So, it has actually sped things up as opposed to their usually method of writing down what they want to say and then reading your lips.

I am pretty outgoing, so it comes in handy. I haven't actually had anybody show outright displeasure, they always seem happy to find someone that signs. The closest would be a grumpy old man who was curt. He lived in the same neighborhood but would continue and we finally became friends and drinking buddies.

"As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent."

My dreams frequently claim I am a master composer, and that this tune is wonderful, or that I've written a really clever joke, or that they've told me something important. None of the things I've ever dragged up to the waking world have ever even remotely panned out as the dream promised. (If I may anthropomorphize for convenience.)

I've come to the conclusion that that is the dream, in some sense. You dream that you were fluent in Spanish, but not just that you abstractly believed in it but that you had the experience. But what language were you speaking? Nothing. Nothing comprehensible, and possibly literally nothing at all; simply the empty experience of fluency without any concrete referent.

Which makes the Dunning-Kruger effect more comprehensible, if it is possible to experience the feeling of "competence" divorced from almost anything concrete. Dunning-Kruger IMHO happens when the competence is firing and the person in question has no counterbalancing reasons to suppress it. So one of the keys of true competence is to be sure to eschew that feeling, in favor of seeking out the ways in which you are not competent. That is another way of looking at "deliberative practice", where you are always practicing just a wee bit beyond your capability. If you don't do that, it's too easy to rest on your laurels and feel soooper confident and awesome that you've really licked this Twinkle Twinkle Little Star tune, so now you really know what you're doing.

That kind of makes sense, thanks! It has puzzled me for years. It was very convincing dream Spanish, like fluency in technical verbiage and speaking about higher order mathematics - all in Spanish when I still had a hard time asking for a room for the night.

I had a similar experience while doing undergrad physics. I would dream up incredibly elegant solutions to hard calculus problems ... wake up, write them down and go back to bed. In the morning I would find stuff like dx/dx = c or some other trivial or incorrect equation.

Not sure about dreams, but I have had (simple) conversations entirely in German with people when in Germany -- but when I remember the content, I "hear" it all in English. This irritates me incredibly.

I lived in Belgium for almost eight years. I tried to learn French, many times over. But it is a language that goes in one ear and out the other for me.

However, in those nearly eight years, my wife and I visited Italy at least three or four times, for a total of maybe three weeks.

I swear to $DEITY that I learned and used more Italian in those three weeks than I did French for the entire time I lived in Belgium.

For me, there are just some languages that are harder than others, and are unlikely to ever stick. But maybe that’s just me.

I believe it is also the way the languages are spoken and the phonetics. For me, French is very difficult to hear but Italian, Spanish, and even Japanese have very distinct pronunciation and phonetics, making it easy to understand.

I'm learning German with Fluent Forever, and though it's a bit early to have a definitive opinion, so far it's going really well, far better than any of my previous attempts. Fantastic method.

I think the main take-away is that there is no magic bullet. No single app, class, methodology, etc - will teach you the language. I finally started being successful with Japanese when I stopped looking for a single magic bullet and started pursuing whatever leads were proving effective - now I have a varied study approach that's suited to my needs. After about 6 months of study with this approach, I can hold a conversation in Japanese and read elementary/middle school aged manga.

iTalki seems to only support signup via Facebook. That's not so good, for those who do not wish to do it that way. I've seen many other web sites/apps that do that (or signup via Google), but most of the others also support the regular method of signing up by creating an account and giving your email address. Wish iTalki did too :(

What's a typical going rate for a speech partner?

7-15/hour for non "teachers"

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