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Comment by chollida1 | Hacker News Reader

To be followed shortly by amazon's second head quarters:)

I didn't see the link posted but this is probably a better link.... https://sidewalktoronto.ca/

Toronto is a funny city. Most cities play up their coast line, Toronto gets scummier as you move towards the water, though they are addressing it and its improved a lot over the past 10 years with the condo boom.

I really hope they can do something productive with the land because right now its a big eye sore and its a prime location right in the heart of the city.

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As someone who currently lives on said coastline, I'm really not sure what you mean by "scummier". In my humble opinion, it is the most pleasant part of the city, more than half of it is accessible parkland of some sort.

This is what I saw from my roof a couple days ago: https://twitter.com/aaronmhamilton/status/919820166833242112

The only sorta crummy building on the waterfront from this vantage is the Canada Malting Silos, but even that has its charm.

To me, a lot of the rest of the city is an eyesore. Unfortunately a lot of the large buildings in Toronto are brutal postmodern slabs of concrete spiritual oppression, including many around New City Hall.

The Port Lands are not actually so bad at the shore, some of the industrial stuff like the Hearn coal reactor and the recycling plant that went up in flames a month or so ago is a bit rough, but it's convenient to the city that these things are within city limits. It is exceptionally unusual to have facilities like those on the Port Lands and the island airport this close to the city center.

The area between Jarvis and University/York is pretty unpleasant to walk around once you're south of Front, in my opinion. Walking in the rest of the city is quite nice.

I suppose it can be attributed to the expressway being there, but shit - I dread visiting the area on foot.

The distance you mentioned is about 3000 feet. Toronto's waterfront spans over 25 miles. And for the most part it is beautiful, in my opinion.

i agree it's not scummy but it's far from nice...see Chicago

These places are designed for and receive a ton of foot traffic - the ACC and Union Station, specifically. It's somewhat odd that the area immediately surrounding isn't very pedestrian-friendly.

The Hearn is one of the most beautiful and unique buildings in the city. Luminato Festival has used the space for the past two years, and I hope to see more diverse programming there in the future. I would extend similar praise to the malting silos - both are historic structures that, while certainly deteriorating and in need of repair and upgrades, are some of the few buildings that give the waterfront and Port Lands an identity different to that of the rest of the city. When developers have their way and structures like these disappear to make way for thoughtless, cheaply constructed condo buildings, the city will lose some of the few facets of identity that remain.

Developers have already ransacked almost everything south of the Gardiner at this point, so I suppose it's only a matter of time until they turn the rest of the city into a quick buck as well.

Yeah, the lack of character and thoughtfulness in the new buildings going up is among my reasons for looking to move out (right beside the decline of the government's respect for civil liberties, and the increase in outright corruption with the majority party under the leadership of a snowboard instructor).

Were you just looking for an opportunity to slag Trudeau? Last time I checked he isn't mayor of Toronto -- unless there's just something I don't know about John Tory. Maybe you can root for Doug Ford in the next mayoral round. I mean, we're talking about Toronto, right?

Moving to the United States of America, I mean. Toronto is in Ontario, which is in Canada. The Mayor of Toronto largely fine, the Premier of Ontario is questionable, the Prime Minister of Canada is concerning.

You sure have made a lot of assumptions about me: I'd advise you to keep them to yourself, Rob.

If there's anyone I would be concerned about it's the Ontario premier, but sure go on ahead down to the US where they ostensibly don't build uninspired buildings in their cities or something.

I'll be the one to agree with you, but scummy isn't necessarily the right adjective -- Soulless would be better. I rarely have any reason to go south of Queen Street unless I'm going to Toronto Islands (which I love dearly). A project like this, plus the rail deck park they want to build over the train tracks might help sway me, but what they really need is to tear down/bury the expressway so that everything south of it doesn't feel so divided from the rest of the city.

Toronto does not get 'scummier' towards the water, unless you mean in the absolute most general sense - i.e. from way out in the burbs, yes, the 'downtown' is 'scummier' and is 'closer to the water'.

But Toronto is mostly just a giant cold suburb, that is reasonably well run, but doesn't standout for any reason in particular.

It's the ultimate 'B' city.

It's consistently better than almost anywhere, and yet, not one aspect is really world class. I mean - San Francisco is 'missing' so many things that make it a truly all-round city, yet is so exceptional in many ways. Toronto 'has everything' but it really lacks a 'raison d'etre'.

And FYI I grew up there I can say what I want about it :)

Toronto is totally different even from 10 years ago. Spadina/Queen/King (where all the starts-up are located) is so busy even at nights and weekends because so many people live and work there. The ports area being developed, is totally dead by comparison (that's why the city wants Google to help develop). And suburb Toronto, check out Yonge/Sheppard-Finch today, it is 2-km stretch of pan-Asian restaurants that you cannot find anywhere outside of Asia.

I'm definitely impressed by how 'busy' it is - but TO is mostly a 'Starbucks, Timmies, Whole Foods and IKEA' kind of town.

It's more brand oriented and suburban than ever before.

Example: Toronto used to have a 'musical sound'. You could hear a band maybe know that it was from TO.

No such thing anymore.

TO is a large group of fairly well behaved and polite people from around the world getting along in the cold. And that's it.

Toronto has made me realize that culture cannot be invented, and that you can't just 'create' cohesion.

Sadly, most things that would have made the are unique - have been wiped out ... the suburbs of Toronto, Singapore, Denver, Amsterdam - are becoming more and more alike the only thing differentiating them is the weather. :)

I think we need a new version of globalization :)

The Yonge/Finch area is pretty disappointing actually. The food quality is fairly low outside of a couple gems (in a sea of garbage). Random places around Markham are much better if Asian is your fancy.

As somebody who has seen my friends move there in their 20s, I can't help but think it rubs off on the residents... Not so much that they become sorta 'B', but they seem to become fearful of culture outside of their bubble.

Give me a friend who moved to Montreal over the Toronto lot any day.

I think people become meek when they have no common culture to participate in. And of course, they 'follow the rules' which we Canadians do very well.

Even thought most folks have some 'imported' culture to which they can belong and which gives them identity, it's rarely going to be common enough - or prominent enough - that it gives them any swagger or anything.

To your point: sometimes people make pop songs about Montreal, not so much Toronto, although Drizzy has been doing some calling out ... I just can't think that he's authentic.

Toronto reminds me a lot of Singapore these days: ex-English colony, well managed, secure, but no real culture of their own or swatter.

Again, not hating, I lived there for 20 years :)

I've lived in Toronto for a while and Queen's Quay is lined with expensive condos and corporate skyscrapers. I don't really understand what you mean by scummy.

Do you mean the port lands? There's nothing wrong with that area. It was built for industrial shipping. The only eyesore in that area (Rebel) opened up no more than 3 years ago. If you mean Lakeshore, those tent cities under the Gardiner are recently established as well.

Take a water taxi over to Hanlan's before Winter rolls around. It'll change your perspective. We have a beautiful city.

It's nothing compared to the Vancouver waterfront, though, with the park, seawall, convention centre, floatplanes, and everything else.

The Waterfront is a lot like Yaletown, minus the yuppie businesses (e.g. Gelato shops, specialist stores which use words like "bespoke" or "artisanal" to describe their wares) .

The Port Lands have already been extensively studied and a lot of planning has gone into it. There is a pretty extensive report that is a pretty fun read/scan. This would be the plan that Google would have to integrate into.

http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/nbe/wcm/connect/waterfront/97... (pdf)

A lot of people are denying it, but I worked down in the Port Lands (where they plan to develop for Sidewalk Labs). I can confirm. It is a dead-zone.

There are some shops centered around the film industry, deeper in is the Hearn (grandfather worked there in the 50's -- it's a nice building on the outside but requires massive amounts of maintenance to see life in the future. It's still well-used by the film industry.), Pinewood Studios Toronto, there's a garbage/recycling centre, and truck yards, empty lots, overgrowth, and an old fireman's club... and the Keating Channel pub. If you've ever worked the film industry in Toronto, you probably know the place.

When you compare Toronto's waterfront to other cities -- I get it completely. It's nowhere near as done up as say, Seattle or Boston. It's because it has an industrial past.

That said -- much of the city does have a nice waterfront. The Port Lands area in question is the exception here. The east end was the boardwalk and beaches and even Ontario Place on the west end is getting an overhaul, starting with the new Trillium Park: http://ontarioplace.com/en/park-trail/

>I get it completely. It's nowhere near as done up as say, Seattle or Boston. It's because it has an industrial past.

Seattle also has an industrial past, and more importantly, a lot of it is still industrial. If you pop open google maps and zoom in on Seattle's waterfront, essentially everything south of Yesler Way is shipping and other industrial uses. Additionally basically everything south of the stadiums is pretty industrial, even further inland.

From looking at Toronto, it looks like the Port Lands area you are talking about is pretty similar to the Sodo area in Seattle I was talking about, while your Harbourfront Centre and Bathurst Quay are more like what people usually consider the Seattle waterfront, with lots of parks and some restaurants, near what I can only assume is your downtown area?

The biggest difference that I see is that you guys appear to have a _lot_ of parking lots, and your rail lines and a big expressway appear to run right between your downtown and the waterfront.

You've got me there. I've only been to Seattle once and was promptly exposed to the lively harbour area as that's where we arrived by ferry from Victoria. I mean, there's a ferris wheel! And it was night so it was all lit up. Toronto has some nice features, for sure... maybe it was only the difference.

The Gardiner Expressway is a notorious design flaw with criticisms spanning decades -- people just rely on it too much now to change it. Though it's now crumbling and needs repair, there are some propositions for beautifying that area.

The rail lines have been there for a very long time, though in different spirit, maybe.

This whole conversation has reminded me I haven't spent much time down around certain parts of the waterfront in a long time. The expressway is a major psychological block for a lot of people. It makes it seem so far away. In seattle it felt like a short walk from halfway up downtown because of the features all along the walk. Walking beneath the Gardiner here is not a thrilling experience for a downtown. That's one difference I can note for sure, if we're to compare properly comparative regions of the cities.

> To be followed shortly by amazon's second head quarters:)

No way, Montréal will have that second HQ!

>Most cities play up their coast line

Eh, I disagree. You don't see Houston or Tokyo trying to upsell on their coast-line. I think tourist cities play it up, but major cities that exist where they are because of their ports don't push tourists towards it because bustling ports are almost by definition disgusting.

The only exception I can think of is San Francisco, but that's by nature of its unique peninsula geography. You can just go to the west side to find decent beaches. The Port of San Francisco (east side) is still gross. (to me... there is a lot of tourists piers there I guess)

I think the port of San Francisco has been pretty much supplanted by the port of Oakland so now it is mostly for tourists.

The port lands are a bit of a mess.

The waterfront area is pretty nice right around Harbourfront Centre, though. The Beaches to the east and Sunnyside/Humber Bay Park to the west are pleasant as well.

You can walk all the way to Pickering along the shore from secret beach (the difficult-to-access beach beside the water pumping station at the East end of the Beaches), it's something I enjoyed a lot in my tween years.

> Most cities play up their coast line

In the broader sense, sure. At the micro level, no. i.e. see Chicago and Uptown.

what? lol. the toronto waterfront is already one of the nicest parts of the city and rapidly improving.

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