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Comment by mwexler | Hacker News Reader

The business models for pricing aggregators and reviews sites are completely absent. Even Consumer Reports struggles to meet the costs of testing and staffing. The BBB is a mess. The "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" hasn't meant anything for decades.

It's a sad state of affairs: We all want unbiased reviews, but we won't pay for them. We all want to know the spread of prices so we can balance service/trust with cheap, but price aggregators are all either blocked out of existence or become affiliate listings.

While so many things have come true, there are still a few internet dreams like free-flow price summaries and wisdom-of-the-honest-crowd which are sadly still just beyond our grasp.

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The problem goes deep.

I recently decided to get a Consumer Reports subscription after not having one for 10 years. I used it to find the absolute BEST dishwasher.

But because their rating system is a little strange, and they don't exactly tell you BUY THIS, DONT BUY THAT, I ended up with a Dishwasher I hate. It was the most expensive, and best according to CR, but I cannot express how miserable this piece of junk makes me.

Then I look at the FREE reviews on Amazon, where I see many people who have the exact same issues as me. Why did I pay for Consumer Reports? According to their "tests" this dishwasher might last 20 years or something amazing like that, but for what I care about it sucks, its hard to use, and it doesn't dry dishes AT ALL.

I want to fund unbiased reviews, but I also need Consumer Reports or others to step up their game on providing information that is actually useful and changes my experience as a buyer.

> they don't exactly tell you BUY THIS, DONT BUY THAT

> but for what I care about it sucks, its hard to use, and it doesn't dry dishes AT ALL.

I'm confused, it sounds like you wish CR had just told you which dishwasher to buy without going into more detail, but you also wish they had gone into more detail about specific strengths and weaknesses so you could make a decision based on what's most important to you.

Did CR just not talk about the things you hate about your dishwasher, or did they talk about it, but only as part of a complicated, confusing review?

I've generally found CR to be a million times more informative than any of the crappy, sleazy affiliate marketing sites peddling "reviews" that clog up the first few pages of Google search results. That said, I haven't really looked at them for a few years, so maybe they've gone downhill. Their business model does seem harder to sustain in the internet-era.

Not to mention the fact that "is better than" is almost certainly not transitive for anything beyond the most simplistic definition of "better".

I did contradict myself there. What I was trying to say is that a highest customer satisfaction rating probably would have been better than all the information they gave. But barring that, random Amazon reviews which were free, provided me information more aligned with my experience.

What they talk about is how the dishwasher did, when put through their special "testing program". So apparently this top of the line dishwasher will perform a great number of cycles before breaking. Consumer Reports isn't wrong. The engine is great. They also measured the decibels, so they could say this is "the most quiet" dishwasher.

The information I could have received from Amazon reviews, was that it is hard to adjust the upper rack, meaning you can't easily wash a baking pan. And even on the most extreme drying setting you will still need to dry your dishes by hand.

I don't think CR tests reliability. They survey subscribers to measure quality... which seems more scientific than Amazon reviews, where it's an art to ascertain quality.

I agree that Amazon is great for finding what may frustrate you. Scepter when they combine multiple products and reviews into a single page.

I think one issue with any consumer product is that it is hard to find their issues when searching by generic terms (e.g. bran X problems) vs specific terms (brand X error Y). So it is only once you have the device installed and run into problems do you know which keywords to search.

Modern dishwashers basically suck except for looks, rack capacity/configurations and quietness. They are now all low water use and you can't get phosphate based dishwasher detergent. God help you if you have hard water or some other issues. I have a kitchenaid top of the line that has multiple cleaning sessions including a fancy auto-detect-dirty dishes pro wash feature that never cleans satisfactorily. I have to run on "tough" mode with extra rinse at high temperature to get anything "clean". And I say "clean" because if the water softener hasn't recharged or it's rained or I don't have cascade platinum, rinse aid, and vinegar then the dishes come out cloudy at best or still dirty. And then you have to run dishwasher cleaner every 2 weeks or so... Wine glasses are basically impossible to clean without streaks or residue. And then like you, drying dishes even on the dry cycle depends on relative humidity.. :) That being said I can't run a dry cycle by itself.. it has to run after a wash no matter what.

I’ve got a fairly modern (2008 or so), low-end (Beko) dishwasher that came with my house; it cleans perfectly. My main complaint would be that it’s a bit noisy, but it works fine, basically. The current version costs about 250 euro. A higher-end one that I had when I was renting also worked fine. You may just have been unlucky with the particular model; modern dishwashers aren’t all bad.

>> drying dishes even on the dry cycle depends on relative humidity

Thanks to Energy Star they can't put a heating element in them like they used to. Brand new Samsung dishwasher (why does everyone thing Samsung appliances are great? They are garbage) and it doesn't dry, dishes end up wet, dishwasher ends up stinking, Samsung suggests cracking the door... Went on Lowes website and half the reviews have the same complaints. Junk.

Have you checked out The Wirecutter/Sweethome? I find their reviews thorough and they always give you several options while explaining why you might choose one over the other. Here is their dishwasher review for example: http://thesweethome.com/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/

Which dishwasher was it?

Bosch is the brand. Don't remember the exact series number, but its the most expensive model typically available in Home Depot or places like that. I don't want to slander them too much, because the product really is quiet, and very durable. But those ended up being the least important factors for me.

I have a mid/high-end Bosch and find that the dishes end up much dryer if you crack the door when the cycle completes. This is particularly important for plastic stuff like tupperware. It doesn't have a heating element, so it's best to expose the dishes to non-humid air while they are still hot.

They weight energy efficiency way too high in their reviews of everything. Appliances, cars, etc. It means if you follow their recommendations you get dishwashers that don't dry your dishes and cars that can't accelerate to the speed limit on a freeway on ramp.

A dozen years ago, I had a house built, and I bought all the appliances myself. I thought I would research the market, find the sweet spot, and get a good deal through a specialty appliance store because I was getting everything at once. Boy, was I wrong.

I subscribed to Consumer Reports online, and came up with what I thought was the right brand: GE "Gold". I bought everything in the line: stove, microwave, dishwasher, refrigerator, washer, and dryer. Within 5 years, the washer and dryer had both been replaced, almost all the plastic accessories on the fridge had broken, the stove's convection fan failed, and one of the rails on the storage pan fell off, several screws fell out of the dishwasher before I ever started noticing, and the silverware tray broke, and I couldn't keep microwave lights working.

What I finally figured out was that ALL of the stuff CR is reviewing is made by a few companies, and it's ALL crap. They make it seem like you can buy something "good" by paying twice as much, but even if CR is truly impartial, there's no material difference. I got more years of service out of the second-hand, refurbished, mismatched washer and dryer that I bought from the ratty converted house/shop on 3rd street than I got out of the "higher" end models, and paid 1/4 of the price.

And I'll tell you something else for free: it was damn refreshing to hear the guy who FIXES UP appliances for a living tell me he wouldn't even take my old units off my hands to refurbish -- for free -- because they really were total junk. Talk about salt on the wound! Find a local guy who does this and ask HIM what you should buy; not Consumer Frickin' Reports.

Before I was born, my parents went to Sears, and bought a "good" Kenmore washer and dryer. They lasted almost 30 years, till they couldn't get some replacement part for the dryer. I've concluded that the only way to get this level of quality is to buy "commercial" kit, and pay TEN times as much.

> I got more years of service out of the second-hand, refurbished, mismatched washer and dryer that I bought from the ratty converted house/shop on 3rd street than I got out of the "higher" end models, and paid 1/4 of the price.

I think that's one misperception. High end anything models aren't high end because they're more reliable - they're high end because they have more features or more expensive finishes, but have more complexity to go wrong. It's true of cars too.. My pet theory is the most reliable model is the highest volume model because the company doesn't want to get eaten by support costs.

I bought a low-end GE twenty years ago and it kept going with fairly easy parts repair on anything that wore out. But it was a very basic washer. I did eventually replace it with a higher end washer from another company - but I had to make my peace that I was getting low-water use and more complexity while likely giving up reliability. My wife and I have fantasized about starting an appliance company that values repairability and reliability without high-end features, but quality materials ...

love this pet theory for things that are commodities

> they're high end because they have more features or more expensive finishes, but have more complexity to go wrong

Sigh, this describes my recent tech purchases to a T. New wireless headphones? More trouble than I had with wired cans in five years, at 3.5x the cost. My first laptop with a dedicated GPU? More glitches than my Intel-only MacBook Air ever had, at 2x the cost. €120 speakers? Their wired "desktop remote" was so dumb that I returned them and bought used €11 speakers on a craigslist clone. (I actually think they sound better.)

I spent at least a day reading reviews for each purchase, too.

On the upside, I will save lots of money by never treating myself to "nice tech" again.

The highest volume model also has an entrenched pipeline of parts and widespread experience with any problems that model does experience. So repairs will tend to be more straightforward and less expensive.

What is commercial kit? I didn't find anything when I looked it up. Are you taking about stuff meant for hotels?

More for restaurants and stores, probably. Commercial appliances.

Yeah, the lifehack has been to buy things labeled restaurant grade.

If you think of a blender, the healthiest person might use it twice a day. At a restaurant, a blender has to last being used all day for a few months.

The best strategy you can follow is, base your buying decision on objective things, you can verify. Price is something you can verify with 100% accuracy, so is features and usability and energy usage. But, all the other stuff: how long it lasts, I wouldn't take anybody's word for it, unless I knew them personally.

For dishwashers, specifically, I think you have to get a really old one for it to work. One that was made before all the stupid water rationing requirements came out.

This day an age, buying the very cheapest stuff, often turns out to be a pretty good strategy. I got a super cheap Vacuum from target for 30$!! It worked great for 3 years. Of course, the filter is like a zillion dollars, so instead of buying the filter, we just sold the vacuum on letgo for 7$, and then bought another brand new super cheap vacuum for 30$!

Bought a Coffee Machine for 12$ on amazon. it's 9 months later and it still works great!!

> I wouldn't take anybody's word for it, unless I knew them personally.

Maybe that's the thing: We need reviewers that we "almost know", who aren't faceless, but also aren't as deeply corrupt as most YouTubers? A bit like John Siracusa reviewing toasters in podcasts [1]. At least with simple gadgets, I would rather trust him than Amazon reviews, even though I've only heard him talking for a few hours.

[1] https://www.caseyliss.com/2015/9/10/siracusa-on-toasters

Yah, pretty much my experience with consumer reports too. They need more objective analysis, but that is hard too given that all it takes to win a 3 year "long term" study is not to have anything major break.

Having been in this boat myself, a few years ago, I decided to simply start fixing my old appliances. Many of which aren't actually old enough to not be efficient (front loading washer from the late 1990's). Its hard when you move houses, but the older appliances (mostly from the 1990's) in my rental are still chugging along. OTOH, the dishwasher, and microwave that got replaced when I lived in it are now on #3 in under 15 years...

Basically, it seems for a lot of things the "quality" seems to have peaked and then due to penny pinching, offshoring, whatever has declined. Of course my mother might say the same thing about her stove from the 1970's, but the current house has a gas stove with electronic igniters built in the 1990's and its also on #3... It seems electronics aren't really a good way to make something last. They might be better at saving some energy here or there, or providing a cool looking interface, but the old mechanical buttons/igniters/etc are often even better.

I bought a house four years ago. When I got in the only thing left standing was the microwave, and the stove. I needed a clean sweep of all the appliances. I went through the reviews, and went to a number of appliance stores. What I found to be the best tell of a good appliance. Was after market parts. I made sure everything I bought had readily available parts. I spent just about 200, and stocked up on spare parts for all my appliances. I went to the appliance stores again, and said notify me of any scratch and dent, clearance etc. of these models. This worked rather well.

The only appliance I had issues with was the dishwasher. While I had parts for washer, dryer, fridge, stove, and dishwasher. The dishwasher had a gasket just under the pump at the bottom of the unit. Every several months it would rupture due to being cheap plastic. I just grabbed one from my shelf and switched it out.

This model also applied to my family. when recommending a unit with more readily available parts. The repairs were less expensive. Are these the best units, not by a long shot. But I know I can repair it at least.

It's somewhat of a recursive lemon problem. We (potential review purchasers) have no way to assure ourselves that we'd be paying for quality reviews and not some sort of fakes, in no small part because of the profusion of ever more convincing fake everything on the internet.

It’s a mess...

Quoting from link below:

GrubHub / Seamless owns MenuPages, Allmenus, Restaurants on the Run, DiningIn, and Delivered Dish.

Seamless takes a percentage, not a flat fee, of the total food and beverage amount, even though its involvement is the same whether an order is for $10 or $250. Restaurants can choose from four commission levels (12.5%, 15%, 17.5%, and 20%); the more a restaurant pays, the higher up it will appear in the search results. When you search for restaurants on Seamless, you may have noticed that, in the default view, the results appear to be random, but they’re actually arranged by who paid what.

And unlike with, say, Google search results, there’s no disclaimer.

http://tribecacitizen.com/2016/03/01/why-restaurants-hate-gr...

This percentage fee paradigm is no different to much of the finance industry. Clearly a farce, but it still surprises me how many people are happy to go along with it.

For me, I feel like wisdom-of-the-honest crowd is actually somewhat attainable. If you can find corroborating reviews across different review providers (Amazon, google, etc) then I've found that the information is much more likely to be true.

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