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Comment by liorn | Hacker News Reader

The cockpit recording from Japan Airlines Flight 123 (which crashed due to improper repairs of tail strike damage 7 years earlier) is chilling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfh9-ogUgSQ

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Wow, that was a scary recording.

From the wikipedia article [1]:

> Casualties of the crash included all 15 crew members and 505 of the 509 passengers

> ...

> deadliest single-aircraft accident in history, the deadliest aviation accident in Japan, the second-deadliest Boeing 747 accident and the second-deadliest aviation accident after the 1977 Tenerife airport disaster.

> ...

> During the investigation, Boeing calculated that this incorrect installation would fail after approximately 10,000 pressurization cycles; the aircraft accomplished 12,318 successful flights from the time that the faulty repair was made to when the crash happened.

> ...

> In the aftermath of the incident, Hiroo Tominaga, a JAL maintenance manager, killed himself to atone for the incident, while Susumu Tajima, an engineer who had inspected and cleared the aircraft as flight-worthy, committed suicide due to difficulties at work.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123

> > In the aftermath of the incident, Hiroo Tominaga, a JAL maintenance manager, killed himself to atone for the incident, while Susumu Tajima, an engineer who had inspected and cleared the aircraft as flight-worthy, committed suicide due to difficulties at work.

That sucks. If ever there were two people that knew first-hand how important it was to get right and would have worked to make sure that accident, and likely others as well could never happen on their shift, those were them. Suicide as atonement is a stupid, counter-productive cultural norm (and hopefully it's much less of a norm in any modern society where it exists).

Interestingly, at the end of WWII, when Tojo was captured by the Americans, he shot himself in the abdomen--creating referencss fo seppuku--and apologized that "I am taking so long to die."

Not long after, he was tried for war cimes and executed by hanging.

I'm sure he would have rather have died from the gunshot.

Whether right in some cases and wrong in others, I think it's difficult to say cultural norms are simply and plainly wrong.

I'm not sure comparing a case where the person has a high likelihood of dying anyway is necessarily appropriate based on what I was referring to. I don't fault the skydiver that failed to pack their parachute correctly and causes it to fail for committing suicide before hitting the ground, I do fault a system that would cause the person responsible for re-checking the parachutes to commit suicide because of the death.

I also didn't say the cultural norm was wrong, just that it was stupid and counter-productive. I meant stupid as an enhancement to counter-productive, and I meant counter-productive in relation to actually advancing a society to the point where the problem that caused the suicide in the first place is less common.

As someone who lives and works in Japan, it's absolutely shameful how people do this, when they are pressured so much from above to bot only work insane hours, but to take the entire responsibility upon themselves. It's as if there is a magical white line, where you can pass orders down through, but there is no responsibility for errors passing back through.

I've just been reading a bit on the aftermath and what is amazing to me is that Boeing apparently paid nothing in compensation or liability, but JAL did, despite the accident being nearly entirely the fault of Boeing!? Does anyone know why?

Based on my reading, the fault lies with JAL for executing the wrong repair procedure. Why do you think the fault lies with Boeing?

Boeing specifies: "repair procedure is like so" and due to misunderstanding, pressure to bring equipment back into use, failure to acquire the correct parts or some sort of similar problem [all my speculation btw], JAL maintenance executes another repair procedure that seems equivalent to them (or at least adequate).

Boeing technicians did the repair on behalf of Boeing. JAL did not do the repair.

It was not Beoing's fault: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123#Caus...

And if you read your own link you would see that it was Boeing's own repairmen that caused the faulty repair. JAL didn't do the repair.

Oh man, that captain screaming for more power [9:30] while the "pull up" alarm is going on, that is bonechilling. Thanks for the link.

Why did he want flaps AND power? Wouldn't flaps slow the plane making it more likely to stall?

Flaps do increase drag (especially at higher speeds) but they also decrease the stall speed which is why they're deployed during takeoff and landing-- they allow a slower takeoff speed. In effect, at lower speeds, the lift increase has a bigger effect than the drag.

Flaps reduce stall speed as well as inducing drag; in the very short term, they prevent stalls.

I already had SEVERE fear / anxiety of flying before this video. I'm not sure I'll ever fly again. FML.

Well cars don't have drive recorders, they seem to cause a lot more deaths and probably should.

I think a lot of people have anexiety for flying, I useto for a while. The best recommendation I could give to get over that (or at least to mitigate it a little), is to do some flight lessons. I actually conpletly switched deom being nervous to wanting to fly fairly quickly :-)

I know for a fact that I would have far less fear (maybe even NONE) if I were the one flying the plane. One of these days I might take your advice and go for some flying lessons.

I know that the issue at its heart, is about control. In a commercial airline flight I have no control over anything, and that's the root of the fear. It's why I'm not afraid of driving, despite knowing my risks are statistically MUCH higher. At least when I get behind the wheel, I feel like I have the ability to do something about risks as they arise, even if my chances of reacting in time are extremely small, at least I can do something.

I couldn't help but think about being on that flight, for 30 minutes, knowing it was going to crash and being completely unable to do anything about it. I've always wondered what would be going through other people's minds? I would be having a crisis, and possibly would die from a heart attack before the plane even crashed.

For what it's worth, I'm a huge proponent of self driving cars BECAUSE I recognize the potential for a much safer world.

Note that this is a historical accident that hasn’t happened since and that accidents in aviation are extremely uncommon. You’re significantly more likely to get T-boned by a driver on their phone browsing Facebook than you are to encounter a minor incident in the air.

You should read Cockpit Confidential; it’s a great book written specifically to address your concerns

thank you, I'll take a look.

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