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Comment by iopuy | Hacker News Reader

Earlier this year on a white water rafting expedition I had the misfortune of falling out of the raft and into a series of category 5 rapids. It was absolute chaos. The force of large bodies of moving water is astounding. Any notion of "swimming to safety" is ludicrous. A more accurate description is "being washed to safety" because you have no control over the larger movements of your body. I've heard in avalanches survivors sometimes don't know which end is up and digging themselves deeper. This was me while underwater in the rapids. I couldn't see, didn't know which end was up, and couldn't breath. How he managed to survive is astonishing. Finding his knife, assessing the situation, and acting before being pulled under while injured almost defies my imagination. Riveting read.

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Never went into rapids, but I went into a beach between caribean sea and atlantic ocean, known for having a bit more waves (nothing like a class V rapid, maybe 1m waves max.). I failed to catch one at the right time and got swallowed into the crashing tube, it was hard to describe how being embedded in a fluid with enough internal energy feels. Between the chaotic directions and the actual strength I turned into a wooden puppet. I ended up eating the sand face first while my heel knocked my head from behind. Something I cannot do on my own, its just the wave that folded me backward. I'm lucky I didn't breath water I'd have finished that day in a hospital or worse.

I did something similar in Nice. Standing a little inshore, the top of the water hitting my torso was moving faster than the water around my legs. I ended up being flipped backwards, and dumped on the floor with my back bent right back. I was lucky the tide wasn't stronger, it was hard enough swimming back to shore with my back hurt as it was.

Right, it's crazy how water can bend your body that much. I guess every part in the wave carry enough force to keep bending you in every angle. I also had pain in my spine for a while. I'm everything but supple.

You're right, when something pushes you you can usually swerve or redirect the motion. When the water hits you, even the water moving around you pins you in place, and the water behind sucks you in the same direction - it's impossible to pivot without gravity!

I have a healthy fear of standing up in the ocean now...

Yep, and it's a very unnatural situation to be in, maybe people used to skyfall have better reflexes to stop spinning and getting a sense of orientation back.

I was on the barren craggy side of Aruba with my wife standing on this sheer “cliff” about 15 feet above the ocean watching these big waves roll in.

All of a sudden a wave about 20 feet appeared out of nowhere and almost swept us off the cliff.

I was recording a video of the waves. We looked back at the video later and you hear me go “oh shit”, pick up my wife, and run just to get pummeled by this thing from behind with water splashing over us. We got pretty far from the cliff and I’m not positive how much of it was running verse being pushed.

The end of the video is us soaked cracking up with broken flips flops and me saying “my phone got wet”. We absolutely don’t remember any of it. It was pure adrenaline the second we saw the wave.

I can speak more towards avalanches than I can with rapids. It might be tangential to this discussion, but I can't help but chime in on the subject when I get the chance. I've thankfully never been buried in a slide, but it's one of those topics that all non-suicidal backcountry skiers spend a lot of time studying. The community is extremely focused on education and outreach, because those are the only tools that will give people the knowledge and skills needed for informed decision-making when they're in the backcountry. You do everything in your power to avoid being in a position to trigger a slide in the first place. Even if it means foregoing your planned lines for more conservative terrain, going home when you see the terrain and snowpack, or not going out at all if the forecasted danger level is high.

Self-rescue is really, really rare unless you've been incredibly lucky enough to float towards the top of a shallow deposition zone in a small slide. Or you've been deposited on top. Even in a relatively shallow burial, 10-12" inches (or even less) means you're entombed in what might as well be concrete. If you're lucky, you'll be able to at least push away a cavity to breathe into while you wait for the rest of your group to dig you out before you asphyxiate. There's equipment that can help you improve your chances (airbag, AvaLung) beyond just the beacon, but they're not guarantees. If it's in your mouth and it isn't knocked out, an AvaLung might help you extend your air supply. An ABS airbag system will hopefully help you float closer to the top during the slide. It won't help you if you slam into a tree or other debris and break your back.

Whether it's in the snow, or in the water, mother nature is an uncaring mistress who demands respect. Even when you do everything right, she can still kill you. If there's one good thing about hearing these stories, terrifying and tragic as they often may be, it's that they can drive home that point. The outdoors are, more often than not, a continual exercise in risk management. We put up with it because there's nothing quite as breathtaking as seeing the sun peak over a snow-covered horizon from atop the mountain. Or as exhilarating as the ride down.

> The force of large bodies of moving water is astounding.

We underestimate it because we're used to water flowing around us at low speeds. But once you've got enough of it moving quickly, the viscosity and momentum really starts to matter.

The thing I think of to try to ground my intuition is to imagine someone throwing a gallon of water at me, still in its jug. Now imagine thousands of those hurtling my way. That's a big crashing wave.

if your unlucky enough to be fully buried in an avalanche, it's not possible to dig, period. After everything stops moving, the loose snow refreezes almost instantly, locking you in place. Still, you're correct... Survivors often state they had no idea which direction was up.

I thought the common advice was to try to swim upwards while you were moving.

That's probably said just to keep you from panicking to give you something to attempt/think about while snow is crushing you. How can a mass of (often wet or frozen in blocks) snow tearing down trees and hurling rocks allow you to swim? Wishful thinking, survival is a question of luck. Maybe in very small avalanches. Many people get their skulls crushed, the forces there are immense... Best way is to avoid avalanche terrain completely. If you walk on a snowfield hearing strange noises a few feet under your legs, run for you life! Abort immediately even if it is your last chance for a climb/ride and would cost you a lot of money.

Avalanches act very much like liquids while they are still moving, swimming upstream is indeed the common advice and it has definitely worked. That is why one of the newest devices to survive one (if you are caught) is basically a life preserver: https://www.scott-sports.com/global/en/page/avalanche-pack

These serve the dual purpose of protecting your head and decreasing your density so you float to the top of the snow pack.

Yes, obviously there are big enough avalanches with huge slabs that will kill you in the ride, especially if you end up going through trees, but most skier involved avalanches are on more open terrain (thus why they slide) and are loose snow while moving.

Avalanche bags work nicely in small slab to medium powder avalanches where you might end up upside down a few feet under the surface and suffocate without these bags. It won't help you with most killer avalanches such as large powder ones (220mph and acting as concrete when they stop, filling your cavities), heavy wet ones in spring taking grass, rocks and tree trunks, and most importantly large frozen slab avalanches that just don't care about any equipment you might have or movements you do (and those often give you acoustic signals before they are ready to go). I've read somewhere that without any special equipment, your avalanche survival rate is that of lightning strike. I guess we see videos only of those survivable ones so we often underestimate the danger.

There are a great many things which are inevitably fatal in the worst case, but for which there are effective measures that can improve your chances of survival otherwise.

There are unsurvivable avalanches (i.e. in the best case you end up dead in one piece):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDEP15NTMgc

Some avalanches can destroy bridges or change landscape. It's truly just the survivor bias we see on videos making us think the worst cases aren't very common.

> It won't help you with most killer avalanches such as large powder ones

This is tautological. Yes, few people survive killer avalanches, because that's what defines a killer avalanche.

Many avalanches encountered by backcountry skiers especially are not these giant killer ones, and can be survived either by skiing out of them or having the proper equipment and training. Your odds aren't great, but they aren't nothing either or people wouldn't bother carrying the gear. (beacon / shovel / probe / avy bag)

Anyways, this is sufficiently off topic, but your characterization of avalanches is movie-like-stuff. Huge avalanches happen but they aren't the typical case. Most are small / medium slides triggered by humans in the backcountry.

Terrains I usually ski at (black & double black diamonds + yellows) tend to have accidental massive avalanches (i.e. randomly stepping on some 5x5ft patch that causes avalanche to fall), so I need to be prepared for any eventuality and estimate safety of the area. I have seen people diving head first on a steep slope, causing avalanches to roll, and they telling me they couldn't move while in the flow and their lungs being super compressed, making them unable to breathe. Especially in spring you need to be super careful as even a smaller wet avalanche can easily kill you - those are usually slow and stop all the way down in the valley, sometimes taking houses with them, crushing you with weight and without any chance to escape.

When I did avalanche safety training, we were told your chance of surviving an avalanche with (shovel/probe/beacon) is about 50% overall. Roughly 25% of people are killed in the avalanche (before it stops). If you survive the initial avalanche, if you're buried your buddies have about 10 minutes to dig you out. After that, survival rates drop rapidly.

Assuming you have people around that can locate you/dig you out (beacon/shovel/etc. you mentioned), and you manage to have some breathing space (that could allow you to survive for a few hours in the best case). If not, then probably those stats with lightning strike might be comparable, i.e. you rarely survive. There are plenty of "lone wolf" tourists/off-slope skiers. I used to ignore these when I was a reckless teen, now I try to be super careful.

> Survivors often state they had no idea which direction was up

They can spit or pee.

Why is this being downvoted? First thing you should do after an avalanche is dig your face out a foot or two and spit [1]. If it lands back on your face, you're facing up, if not, you're upside down. Taught early in AIARE courses.

[1]: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/21/nation/la-na-nn-aval...

This depends on the type of avalanche. I know,because I was caught in one. The one I was in was relatively minor and made up of a large part newly fallen snow. I had stopped for a break and managed to get my skis back on, but the thing overtook me hundred meters later. I had managed to get to higher ground relative to the rest of the slope, which is probably what saved me. I broke one leg and both my arms and got a pretty bad concussion.

I managed to walk/ski (one ski was still on me, but badly broken ) to a nearby village and driven on a stretcher to the hospital.

I am lucky to be alive. It is amazing though how clear you can think in life threatening situations. the moment I noticed the avalanche I knew exactly what to do and where to go. When I was buried I remember rocking back and forth to get some wiggle/breathing room and when it stopped I waited until my mind cleared up, struggling hard to defeat the panic and pain, until assessing g the situation.

Wow! Firstly I would like to say this was one of those rare HN comments which blows you mind away.

Very nice to hear you survived such a bad accident.

>>I am lucky to be alive. It is amazing though how clear you can think in life threatening situations.

David Allen talks about these situations in this talk. In the moments of crises, the brain brings about all its focus to the highest priority task at focus. Its almost like crises commands the best kind of productivity.

Students have known that since the dawn of time. It's why they don't work until the night before the deadline, when the urgency is enough to allow them use 200% or their brain's capacities in order to obtain a passing grade.

The cherry on top: they can now spend the time until their next deadline thinking about the amazing grades they would get if they worked more than one night per month.

Source: me

Cortisol does wonders, but only for the short term. It basically destroys part of your body to supercharge the rest.

Later on in life, plenty of companies try to make use of it, pushing people into long hours and short deadlines, and find that it doesn't work as well.

>>pushing people into long hours and short deadlines, and find that it doesn't work as well.

That is because you need some skin in the game. Nobody is losing sleep to work on a project whose success or failure has no disproportionate effect on the well being of the individual.

> In the moments of crises, the brain brings about all its focus to the highest priority task at focus.

I had the same during an almost traffic accident when a truck wasn't giving me the right of the way from a side road. Brain just switched to autopilot and managed to go inches away from both truck and barriers on the other side of the road. No damage done. It was kinda amazing, being an observer only.

What mountain range? I understand the Rockies have a lot of nasty deep slab avalanches (not soft and fluffy) and the Sierras have really heavy wet snow (also not soft and fluffy). Alaska was mentioned in avy classes as the chief place for fluffy sloughing?

This was in a small valley near insbruck, Austria in the early nineties. It got some media attention due to some controversy regarding irresponsible tourists. I had however done my research and picked a slope that was regarded as low risk, which was unsurprisingly not reported b the local media :)

I've also gone swimming in continuous Class V. And yes, there is no control. But hopefully, you're wearing a wetsuit/drysuit, helmet and life preserver. So as long as you can get a breath occasionally, you may well survive. Dead trees jammed among the boulders (sweepers) are probably the major risk.

There's also the fourth drop of Lost Paddle on the Gauley in WV. The whole left side of the river is a labyrinth of strainers. Thereby the name ;)

The dory I was on flipped going into Crystal rapids on the Colorado. Crystal is one of the most notorious rapids in Grand Canyon due to its huge hole and the rock garden just down stream where you end up if you don't make the rapid. Two people, including the boatman went into the hole, getting Maytagged for a bit before they were spit out. I skirted the edge but got by safely, no thanks to my puny attempts at swimming against that current. Looking down into that hole, though, scared the crap out of me. Fortunately, everybody made it to shore safely, the boat was recovered by an earlier one, and we went on our way with a great story to tell.

Might I ask why you go white water rafting? It baffles me as it seems like a really dangerous hobby.

I actually understand skydiving, bungee jumping, or climbing Everest, because they are controlled risks, but white water rafting seems very chaotic.

Controlled risks, bah humbug! If you think Everest is a controlled risk, do not go there, you are severely underestimating the risks and you would die.

The crazies up here do it in kayaks, which is pretty amusing. I will/do kayak but I'm not doing that.

Kayaking up Mt.Everest? Okay, now that is what I call crazy.

LOL nah, getting their thrill on. They drop in off pretty high cliffs and go through rapids and even over waterfalls. They usually survive.

Some crazy people have skiied down from the summits of some of the 8000'ers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ski_descents_of_Eight-...

Depends on how much money you spend. It's still not easy, but if you're in decent shape, spend the proper time acclimatizing, go during good weather, and pay for a boatload of sherpas to handle everything and guide you and only you, you'll probably survive. If you're in a group or only have one or two, the resources might not (probably won't) exist for them to do much if it happens where they're going to be severely taxed themselves... But 4 or 5 sherpas spending 100% of their time focused on keeping you (and themselves) alive can probably do it, and I'd call it a fairly controlled risk.

Now, whether or not you've really accomplished anything if you've had a team of people babysitting you to the top is another thing altogether.

That's a lot of ifs, and you're still subject to external risks. But yeah, it is indeed possible to manage risk at great expense, noted.

As someone who has done three of four (not done Everest, but have done highest peak in continental US), I think I can fairly say you have a misconception of the risk with white water rafting. The risk of being thrown overboard is high, but the risk of death is much lower in my opinion than skydiving. Sure, a tandem jump is pretty safe, but progressing further is barely what I would call a “controlled” risk. With BASE jumping for example, it’s not really an “if” you’ll die, but rather a “when”. I’ve had many friends die (part of why I won’t do it myself) from doing BASE jumps.

I thought skydiving was just a series of safety procedures, whereas white water rafting is something challenging even to experts, especially at category 5.

> I thought skydiving was just a series of safety procedures

For basics, sure. Get into stacking, swooping, wing suit flying, CRW, XRW, BASE, etc and it gets extremely challenging to the point where dying is inevitable if you keep doing it.

I’ve been white water rafting maybe a dozen or more times in my life and have done CL5 / CL5+ rapids multiple times. I can assure you, no skydiving place I know of will let you get close to doing the activities I listed above with that little experience under your belt.

Edit: As an example, when I worked at LinkedIn we as a team outing did Class IV+ rapids and most folks had zero prior experience. I think the “coaching” was like a 15min briefing before setting off, where as for sky diving you have to do an all day ground school class before jumping with two instructors holding onto you virtually the whole time. Even after being certified, you still typically have to go through the class again if you haven’t jumped recently.

Class 5: Whitewater, large waves, continuous rapids, large rocks and hazards, maybe a large drop, precise maneuvering. Often characterized by "must make" moves, i.e. failure to execute a specific maneuver at a specific point may result in serious injury or death. Class 5 is sometimes expanded to Class 5+ that describes the most extreme, runnable rapids (Skill Level: Expert)

Happened to me a few times, it's a hell of a ride once the water gets you... there's no swimming in rapids, you can maybe just try to position yourself to have legs in front and even that is hard... and pray there's no fallen branches stuck between rocks somewhere in there.

> How he managed to survive is astonishing. Finding his knife, assessing the situation, and acting before being pulled under while injured almost defies my imagination. Riveting read.

Did this happen to you or someone else? You switch from first to third person without explanation. "Riveting read" seems like a weird conclusion.

It happened to Cliff Judkins. GP is comparing an event from their own life with the content of the article.

Thank you for correcting my reading-comprehension failure. (That sounds sarcastic, but it isn't.)

I got pulled out and through a Cat 3 after heavy rains... and that was enough. Can't even imagine the scariness of a Cat 5 (multiple!!)

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