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Comment by earksiinni | Hacker News Reader

Sceptical that this means that there were Muslim Vikings. Arabic script was commonly used throughout medieval Iberia as decoration, often without any meaningful words, just Arabic letters strung together for aesthetic effect. Wouldn’t surprise me if something similar was going on here, where Iranian weavers were simply mass producing cloth for export with Ali and Allah embroidered as decoration. Keep in mind that Viking runes can be found inscribed in the walls of the Hagia Sophia. That doesn’t mean that the Vikings were Christian (or Muslim); it means that our stereotypes about the Middle Ages are totally invented by nineteenth century historians with their own nationalist agendas that didn’t allow for a cosmopolitan, globalized medieval Europe.

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    > "We know from other Viking tomb
    > excavations that DNA analysis has
    > shown some of the people buried in
    > them originated from places like
    > Persia, where Islam was very dominant

Which is also not proof-positive that there were Muslim Vikings, but as we know there were Persian Vikings, and as the name Allah appears as decoration, it does start to see pretty likely, no?

> Persia, where Islam was very dominant

Was that true at the time? They were certainly ruled by a caliphate, but other religions survive in Persia till this day so I wouldn't be surprised if the process took centuries. There also appears to be some repression of Persian people after. That Viking could of also been a refugee of the islamification process or the various power struggles in the region at the time.

> "but other religions survive in Persia till this day"

Just to be clear, what is known as Persia is a subset of modern day Iran:

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/iranpersia

Quick note about non-Islamic religions in Iran:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran

"The remaining 0.6% associate themselves with non-Islamic religious minorities, including Bahá'ís, Mandeans, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians. The latter three minority religions are officially recognized and protected, and have reserved seats in the Iran parliament."

> what is known as Persia is a subset of modern day Iran

Subset? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire

Persia != Persian Empire. Just like Britain != British Empire, Rome != Roman Empire, etc...

The Islamic conquest of Iran happened in the late 7th century. The aforementioned remains were probably from the 9th/10th century. However, in that time there were still many Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians in Iran. I agree that the existence of Persian remains does not necessitate that there were Muslim vikings.

Here in Lithuania (well the empire, so Poland and Belarus too) there were a large number of Muslim settlers who arrived in the 14th century. They were known for their military strength and were invited by Vytautas to aid in the efforts against the Christian Crusaders.

If military prowess was as highly regarded as we believe to the Vikings, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar too.

It's entirely possible that there were converts, as well. Many European cultures pre-Christianization had pretty broad-minded attitudes towards religion, and while the majority would adhere to the predominant pagan tradition, some individuals and families would sometimes convert to another religion when exposed to it. Especially given the rather pragmatic attitude towards religious worship among pagans at the time, choosing to honor and worship a god perceived as "stronger" for whatever reason would not be inconceivable - and the impressive early military successes of the Caliphate would be seen as testament to the strength of the god proclaimed on its banners...

While we're at it, one of the founding myths about Christianization of Kievan Rus involves knyaz Vladimir holding a council on which faith to convert to, and inviting preachers to compete - supposedly, Latin and Greek rites of Christianity, Islam (via Volga Bulgars), and Judaism (via Khazars) were all on the table. According to the legend, Islam was rejected first, solely on account of banning alcohol. Judaism was reviewed and rejected next, because the loss of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple was seen as a clear sign of divine weakness by the pagan Rus. Finally, between the Greek and the Latin rites of Christianity, they picked Greek, because Greek churches and priests were decorated much more lavishly (with lots of prominently displayed gold etc), while Latin ones were more subdued.

While it's almost certainly a legend that does not correspond to an actual event, its very premise speaks volumes about how religion was viewed in that time period.

Is there a reason given why he wanted to choose a religion ?

The country (Kievan Rus) was basically just freshly minted at that point, and its various constituent regions, and their respective tribes, didn't really see themselves as a single nation yet - Vladimir's grandfather Igor was killed in a rebellion when trying to collect tribute from one, for example. It occurred to Vladimir that to strengthen the centralized rule of a single king - himself - a monotheistic religion, mirroring the desired arrangement in the spiritual sphere, and providing religious backing to his right to rule ("divine right of kings" etc), would be helpful.

Initially, he tried to reform the existing pagan religion, by taking one god - Perun (god of war and thunder) - and elevating him above others as the supreme god. But that didn't take up too well, and meanwhile, he saw the far more successful examples of what he was trying to do happening in Bulgaria and Poland, with Christianity as the unifying force.

He also wanted to have a strong relationship with neighboring Byzantium. In particular, after getting involved into their ongoing civil war, and supporting the ruling emperor against the rebels, he convinced (or forced, depending on your perspective - it was a condition for his support) the emperor to give his sister in marriage to him - but converting to Christianity was a prerequisite for that. And, of course, a Christian ruler needed Christianity as a state religion, if he wanted religious backing. This last part is why the legend is most likely just that, a legend - Greek-rite Christianity was really the obvious pragmatic choice in the circumstances.

Thanks for this detailed answer.

>According to the legend, Islam was rejected first, solely on account of banning alcohol.

That may be one version. In another the people tasked with finding a new faith came back to Vladimir and talked about how boring the muslim rituals were, "they first look this way, then that way", whereas when they came to Hagia Sophia they "thought they were in heaven".

There were also geopolitical considerations, Byzantium was still very strong and Vladimir wanted to marry the emperor's sister Anna (Porphyrogenita).

Do you mean Lipka Tatars? Yes, they were (mostly) Muslims serving in the army of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and had been settled there. But not really that many of them - 2 thousand according to 2011 cenzus. Their villages (at least only those two remaining within in Polish border) still have mosques.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars

Not just lacking meaningful words—sometimes including designs clearly meant to look like Arabic, but not even real letterforms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic

Wow, talk about conjecture! If they found these artifacts in their graves, the closes thing to truth is that they were Muslims, nothing else.

Since there most definitely were Christian Vikings even in the early days (later they were all Christian), it seems quite probable that some would have also converted to Islam.

But I agree that embroidered pieces of cloth doesn't really say much at all.

It's also pretty strange that the article seems to say that Vikings got the idea for an eternal life after death from Islam. First of all there are very similar ideas in Norse Paganism (cognate to Greek and Roman Paganism), even if it's not in paradise. Secondly the idea also exists in Christianity, and by the 9th century most of Europe, and many Vikings, were of course Christian.

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