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Comment by ierolastic | Hacker News Reader

So many things about that are depressing, like, why would someone cut into a tree like that, and why would they decide that, if one of the trunks is gone, the whole thing needs to be decimated? Both are completely absurd.

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There is an Arabic story about Hatim al-Tai’s brother. Hatim al-Tai was a great man, maybe the most generous person that has ever lived. He was a legend even when he was alive.

One day people saw his brother peeing in the holy Well of Zamzam. This is the most sacred water in Islam. They asked him why he was doing such a thing. “My brother is famous and will be remembered forever in the history,” he said. “I can never be as wise or as generous as him, so this is how I make sure I will be remembered forever.”

So am I wrong to think that by retelling this story, we make him right, thus pushing people who similarly want to be remembered forever without being "wise" to do the same?

Or maybe we're remembering him for giving us a pithy example with an even more pithy punchline that explains in some small way a fundamental part of the human mind? In that way, Hatim al-Tai’s brother was wrong. He was remembered for his wisdom, so much so that I only know of Hatim al-Tai as a way to express this story about his brother.

Whatever the reason might be for us remembering, my point still stands that by retelling the story we make it so that disrespecting others and their belief was indeed the right thing to do for him to be remembered, that is what lead to his goal being reached.

If the same thing happened but the story wasn't passed on, then it would not have been the right path to reach his goal.

For a modern reference, that is why I'm a strong supporter of not propagating the names of people committing things like mass killings for glory, like we've seen quite a few times.

You can still learn from misdeeds. That's a rather clever parable.

No, human nature makes that so, retelling this story just communicates that knowledge of human nature.

I've seen this trope be used so much on TV/movies that it's doubtful that this retelling would make much difference.

For the internet & social media http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformationDesk

For the tree http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TreasureRoom & http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MonumentalTheft & http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PricelessMingVase & http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenAreDelicate

For the vandal/brother http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil

For the photographer http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSuchThingAsBadP...

For the stakeholders http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SurveillanceStati... & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons & http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun

For the authority http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RoyalsWhoActually...

For the work crew http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustFollowingOrde...

For the quoted sage http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpiritAdvisor

For the blogger, op, and commenters http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreekChorus

For me http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MrExposition

*These tropes have many other relevant ones within a couple of clicks and searches. I only mean this as a starting point, far from an omniangular dissection. Sorry if I've offended anyone (this kind of story cuts deep).

For me (continued) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EurekaMoment

For you (if you're wondering (really how could I say?)) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeaningOnTheFourt... https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uuuploads/trai...

Meanwhile back at the ranch for Euereka's script http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MeanwhileBackAtTh... & http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeasonFinale

His name isn't mentioned here, only that of his brother. Which is, I suppose, exactly what he wouldn't have wanted.

> This is the most sacred water in Islam.

It was also sacred in the religions practiced in the region before Islam, which is important because Hatim died before the birth of Islam.

See the picture of the cut limb? (https://kottke.org/plus/misc/images/broccoli-tree-vandal-01....) How it looks like there's a vertical crack in the limb, and kind of black in the middle? And if you look real close at the vertical cut, it looks black inside. Other parts of the tree seem to have large black spots too.

Well limbs don't just crack vertically when they're cut horizontally. Either someone hacked at it vertically (no real reason), or that black spot is the mark of black canker, a willow disease. The only fix is to cut off the diseased limb in the dormant season. And it's almost the dormant season.

Why did all the limbs get cut off? Dunno, maybe it had to do with canker too. But remember, plants are not here for humans' amusement - they often require trimming, chopping, replanting, large culls to prevent disease spread, and all kinds of other treatment to care for them. The end result may be an ugly tree, but a tree that lives.

I could be wrong. But it's best not to dwell on the worst of things if you don't know what really happened.

since this entire topic seems philosophical, I'll go down this path --

someone is sitting at home, feeling worthless, like their life is pointless and they could disappear without anyone noticing.

but there's this tree everyone likes. people notice this tree. because you see lots of pictures of it, people must visit it often. it's a confluence.

if you were to, say, scratch your name into the bark, people would notice. you would have made some difference on the world, for better or worse.

if you were to cut a branch down, people would DEFINITELY notice. people would think about you, when no one would before. even if the thoughts aren't positive.

in other words, to not feel so small and meaningless.

Or rather 3 teenagers got drunk, and wanted to do something whats "breaking the law" or "pissing off hipsters" or "really punk". and cut the tree.

Which is really the same thing, if you think about it.

Actually, yes. Some friends tend to magnify the insecurities that a lonely/insecure person might feel.

What is doing something on a dare besides a play to battle the insecurity of being labeled a "coward"?

> No, you do it for the lulz - because you'll be amused when you see people whining about it on the internet.

Which is the same as "knock, knock, ginger" or as:

> if you were to cut a branch down, people would DEFINITELY notice. people would think about you, when no one would before. even if the thoughts aren't positive.

>in other words, to not feel so small and meaningless.

Aka negative attention, trolling, NS (narcissistic supply). Its all more or less the same league, explained by what I quoted from user 2bitencryption. 2bitencryption's entire quote explains the full process in detail. Kudos.

I agree, kids (and teens) are immature and don't have the tools to make correct choices.

Too many adults are no better

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herostratus

Please consider not doing that.

The same reason people assassinate famous actors and political figures: because doing so means you'll be famous too.

I think it's close to, but not quite, that. Rather than wanting to be famous per se, I imagine they want to be able to observe their own impact on the wider world. A thrill that it's even possible - most life for most people sees little observable impact on most of the world. Such acts are a (terrifying, tragic) shortcut.

This is, of course, speculation. But this is a philosophical thread.

Indeed. You could also pick a right with North Korea (or the US) for just the same kinds of 'reasons'.

It's hardly clear from this particular blog post but if you look at what's been reported in newspapers almost all the trunks had been sawed in.

As for why, who knows, but my guess is we're looking at a physical world manifestation of the same personality that drives many (non-professional) internet trolls. Sadistic and attention seeking.

It's less trolling and more griefing [1]. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

I personally know a real-life griefer who spends his time disrupting discussion boards. He's an intelligent and creative guy, but he sees his mission as being a counterweight to all the positive, friendly discourse that is going on. I'm glad he limits himself to online activities.

In some venues -- the multiple infamous flying penis attacks in Second Life, for example -- griefing can be fun and even beautiful. Rarely in real life.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

I get it, a tree that has had a limb artificially removed is ugly - in my eyes at least. Even trees that are managed can look rough around the edges, whereas the natural shape of trees can be absolutely beautiful. I've tried to tame some large trees that I am stewarding, and to be honest they'd probably look better cut right back to the ground. Thin limb cuts you can get away with, but a severed fat limb looks pretty dreadful.

See the top comment above yours, cutting down the whole thing once damaged seems to have been the proper way to care for the tree long term.

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