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Comment by SomeStupidPoint | Hacker News Reader

> No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans.

I like how in a post about inclusive job ads, they still wanted to show off that they Exclude The Right People.

Their cultural based discrimination is obviously correct and should be applied universally; previous cultural based discrimination is a crime we should all strive to avoid!

I actually enjoyed the post (and agree with most of the points about writing job postings) and don't mean to be overly critical, I just think it's an interesting chance to reflect on how easily these habits come to us as people. (And so some of the language above is dramatic for effect.)

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i think you might be conflating the discouragement of a behavior with the application of an identity to people, something the article seems to try to avoid.

hostedgraphite isn't saying they don't want competent programmers, even if they've copped the brogrammer attitude in the past, but rather, to leave the brogrammer stance at the door. if you can't do that, then (and only then) don't apply for the job because you probably won't fit in (and likely as a result, won't be as successful).

we wear different faces at different times (shout out to billy joel!), and can discard one (or put it in the back pocket) as desired/needed.

I understand that their message is "this is not a frat". However, I still absolutely hate the pejorative usage of brogrammer. People do not use it to exclusively refer to culture.

It is absolutely a label that is applied to people. Sitting here, I feel like I am part of the specter of brogrammers that looms over the industry. Whether it was their intended usage or not, I feel like this term is referring to programmers like me.

Their job ad is not going to have the context of this blog post. Their job ad doesn't say "no brogrammers, but we don't mean men who work out and code, we actually mean the toxic culture of exclusivity that you would see in a frat." Nope, their job ad just says "no brogrammers". If I saw that I would assume that their culture would be toxic toward me.

Please stop using this term. There are people out there who feel like it applies to them and it alienates us. I agree with OP, it is not a term that encourages inclusivity because there is a stereotypical image of a person that comes to mind when it is used.

I think you voice valid concerns, and avoiding language like this is probably the higher ground.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a general group of programmers who throw around the term "brogrammer" as self-descriptive identity. It's a term that originated as a pejorative, and usually there is an implied obliviousness or lack of self-awareness that accompanies the idea. The people you want to receive the negative "no brogrammer" signal may not get it.

It's not a direct or specific term, and its meaning morphs depending on who wields it. If you want to say "no binge drinking happy hours" or whatever, it might be better to say that directly.

I've definitely used the term myself in the past, but I can see how sloppy usage might alienate people who are decent people.

i agree that it’s often used pejoratively to define people. i was not trying to justify that kind of usage. i was simply pointing out that the article generally uses the term as an adjective, not as a noun (i.e., it’s something you can wear, not something you can be).

however you are right that the called-out text from the job ad uses it as a noun, unfortunately.

i’m curious why the phrasing makes you feel it’s toxic toward you personally (without a preconception either way on my part)?

From the article:

>This is amusing and captures our opposition to Silicon Valley rockstar/brogrammer culture

If they are saying that Silicon Valley's culture is a brogrammer culture, they are probably talking about the culture of the dominant group there. If I worked in that area, I would be part of that dominant group.

So, my question is how they would screen out "brogrammers" during an interview process. I think someone looking to filter out this group would have a strong chance of looking at me and fitting me part of it.

If it is as pervasive as they say, then it probably includes me. That is how I see it used most of the time, describing tech's overall culture. I am part of tech's culture, and I am a fit white male who programs. I assume that I am perceived as a brogrammer by many people who use the term.

I get what they were trying to say; the way that they said it was inappropriate because it was structured as an attack on stereotypes and no kind of call out to behavior.

And that is particularly egregious in a post about how word choice can make your job less appealing to groups.

ok, i see what you're saying after re-skimming the article. and yes, behavior over labels is a better approach.

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