NextDoor Says Users Who Share Posts with Reporters Could Be Kicked Off the Site
wweek.com
wweek.com
I've seen people ask the best way to report black people to the cops so they'll be kept from driving through "our safe neighborhood." It's so full of dog whistles my neighbors dogs bark when I open the app.
The only reason NextDoor is freaking out is because they know there's enough of that sort of material to really cause a mass exodus if it ever escaped the neighborhoods it's posted in.
That said...it's...a weird issue, to be sure. NextDoor tried to encourage an expectation of privacy but like...who actually expects that? Really. Anyone with a credit card matching the address they key in can get in. It's not the post card only thing any more.
I could easily change my billing address on my credit card, sign up for some neighborhood on the west coast, and then change my CC address back. Done.
NextDoor has done nothing to actually secure the neighborhood, so it's not like it means anything to say this to the customers. If anything, the neighborhood members could possibly sue NextDoor for overstating the privacy of their posts.
I guess the conclusion is: I'm not just throwing my hands up and saying, "Oh well it's online no privacy!" I'm more saying this is probably the absolute worst hill to choose to fight that battle on.
The cards you mention fail AVS checks, but with a 'U' code for 'UNAVAILABLE'. Many online sellers will let those sales through. NextDoor likely does not.
You can see some of the possible AVS responses here: https://www.chasepaymentech.com/address_verification_service...
Are you speaking up when you see these examples of racism?
(Seriously with the downvotes?)
I have been/am involved in three communities, all in the southeast: 1. An upper class neighborhood in a city where whites are a (slim) minority 2. A working class neighborhood in the same city where I seemed to be the only white guy 3. A rural neighborhood where almost everyone is white
I am surprised that people would write such things today, when the perils of doing so with your own name are widely understood.
Man, I guess I am not the only one who noticed this. And I live in Sacramento, CA. I am guessing its 10x worse else where.
The first few times you see it, you think, ok whatever, people are just being overly cautious. You might even think it was useful, and you could see yourself reporting such things.
But after like the 10th time you see postings like that, you really start to wonder if this is what racial profiling looks like in practice.
I mean, I know most people in my neighborhood and if I saw a random person walking around I'd certainly keep an eye on them. It's technically a public road so they have every right to be there, but it's a cul-de-sac and super uncommon for non-residents to be walking in our neighborhood so it 100% stands out, regardless of skin tone.
My family’s safety is more important than some rando’s feelings of acceptance and comfort.
If you witness an assault, yea go ahead.
It's quite unfortunate that we've gotten to a point whereby some rather nebulous terms such as "freedom of movement" ha gotten in the way of crime-prevention.
For all we know, keeping people from committing crimes by removing their ability to would actually keep them honest and force them to improve their lot. Unfortunately, it's an uncomfortable conversation that touches on police-state territory, so we probably won't have it in the public eye any time soon.
I was just curious how someone would address the issue in the way least likely to be misinterpreted as racist really. I mean, if the only strangers that show up in the neighborhood are from a different group than you and you alert on all of them, can you really tell if the person is racist? You can't simple say "mind your own business" to those people. They are just being alert to things going on in their neighborhood, which is prudent. Perhaps they are a little over-zealous, but that's arguably better than letting your neighbor get robbed.
All of the above is assuming the person isn't actually racist. If they are then screw them, they should be ashamed of themselves and ostracization is a perfectly valid response to their behavior.
There are lots of people on nextdoor who report things like "a black guy was walking down our street looking into parked cars, he ran away when I opened my door", or "I saw an asian guy digging in my neighbor's recycling bin, I reported him to the police", etc.....
I don't think there's anything wrong with that type of description. I find it very helpful.
I think if you or I were to report something to NextDoor, that's probably what we would do. We would carefully observe, report what we observe, and give reasons for why we think something's off. In fact, you did that in your post by mentioning your "cul-de-sac" and explaining your situation.
What makes me uncomfortable is when I see posts that make no effort to describe the problem, and just go straight to describing the suspect. That to me is an indicator of bias.
I'm sure there are racist idiots posting false stories or such, but that issue you described IS very common. Talk to your region's SDPD Community Liaison about the types of crimes and their occurrence numbers. SDPD will usually be able to give you a good comment on the amount of calls about a certain crime vs the actual number of times they make an arrest for a certain crime.
I thought it was its own category because it's not a form of prejudice, but instead refers to the use of race based statistical reasoning.
I'd rather we keep the line drawn. and not muddy the racist card.
e.g. RacialProfilistDoor is more apt
There isn't a universal definition of racism, but racial profiling is certainly a historical tool of racists and racist policies.
But the devil is in the details. It’s famously easy to make bad decisions based on “flawless” calculations that simply don’t interpret data right or don’t take all factors into consideration. Statistics is known for this peril even in mundane business situations, but with problems that are controversial, and affect people’s lives, it’s even more perilous.
Here basic profiling would tell me you are male, correct? Did you know people like you commit 99% of murder and violent crime? Can you really blame me for crossing to the other side of the street if I see you walking toward me at night?
In case anyone was curious, the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics believes that men are responsible for ~90% of murders and ~80% of violent crime (in the US).
Cross the street! Safety is more important than a stranger’s feelings of acceptance and comfort. This is common sense.
Because if not, this sounds like a fancy way to dress up racial prejudice.
Take a look at FBI crime statistics by race and gender sometime. Witnessing a Asian woman committing a property or violent crime is statistically speaking like winning the lottery. If I was to assess the risk of an Asian woman walking down the street I'd rate the risk as lower than any other demographic group, is that racist and sexist?
If you treat people negatively because of their race, yes, that's racist.
And even if they did, it would be dumb statistics. If I am murdered, it's 80% likely it'll be by a white guy. But that doesn't mean I should just assume all the white guys I meet are probable murderers. It doesn't even mean that I should take precautions around white guys, however dangerous they are to me, because the odds of a given white dude being a murderer is still very low.
As studies and Nextdoor's experience show, people will racially profile strangers entirely in absence of actual experience. Indeed, as I mentioned elsewhere, people from all-white areas are much more likely to profile, and to do it in exaggerated, hysterical fashion, precisely because they have no real basis to form useful inferences about an entire race of people. Racial profiling is mostly just dressed-up tribalist nonsense. And it has been used in the US to kill thousands of black people [1], at least.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town. E.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot
I.e. Every individual I talk to has a fresh, blank slate with me. Stereotypes and "profiling" only really apply until you start getting a concrete instance of said group, and deal with them in getting "fresh" data that is unique to them.
Not my direct neighbors, but definitely someone a few streets over. I actually thought that their house was vacant until I received the letter.
Because all that will do is create high school style drama about who's more correct.
But if you want to get into an eternal hate match between your neighbors full of passive aggressive backstabbing, there is no quicker way than to call them out on their causal racism.
Civilization in this context being the set of rules and norms that impose restrictions on our behavior in exchange for a improvements in the quality of life for everyone in the community. One of the challenges of parenting is trying to explain to your children "why" they should follow the rules in terms they can understand and relate to.
It should remain with the people to argue with each other and change their views, not with black box magic woven into the communication medium.
I'm sure The Stranger will have a field day if anyone actually gets kicked off because of this "don't share with the media" position. And if NextDoor think that media folks aren't already embedded, in every neighborhood group, so they can have access to the kinda-racist goings-on of the platform, they are surely mistaken!
This makes it sound like we live in the same area (Rainier Valley). Property crime is definitely a thing here and gun crime has been consistent - though limited - in the Columbia City area.
Pioneer Square is also a different animal since it is highly commercial and not residential.
Regardless, the Rainier Valley has plenty of crime. I've had my car stolen, my car broken into, and a townhome next to mine being burgled in the few years I've been down here.
We are, of course, undergoing rapid gentrification as well.
> If you don't live in Capitol Hill or Pioneer Square (which face
> issues of rapid gentrification and homelessness), the
> local crime stats show that you are vanishingly
> unlikely to be facing even property crime.
Do you really believe this? I live in Ballard, and the rate of property crime has been rapidly rising over the past five years. It's hard to get good statistics because little of it is reported because the police simply don't do anything about it.In the past five years:
- The strap was cut and a gas can was stolen out of the back of my truck, a week after I got it.
- A chair was stolen from our front porch.
- My wife's car was broken into and her ancient iPod stolen.
- Someone climbed our fence and was wandering around in our backyard before a neighbor scared them off.
We would have certainly had lots of packages stolen too, but we simply don't ship things to our house unless we know we will be home. In addition to those direct crimes against us, we've experienced fun things like:
- Countless RVs illegally parked all around the neighborhood.
- People leaving literal piles of trash behind when they relocate their RV
- People dumping their sewage waste on the road when they relocate their RV.
- RVs catching on fire.
- Someone shitting on the street.
- Another person shitting in our alley.
- A neighbor found a gun in their bushes.
- Needles left on the ground in our yard. (We taught the kids not to touch them.)
- Screaming fights in the middle of the night.
- Homeless people using the port-o-potty painters placed in our front yard. (We put a lock on it after that.)
Seattle has a very serious homeless/drug addict problem and it affects virtually every neighborhood. None of this has anything to do with race, of course, but property crime and the other knock-on effects caused by a large homeless heroin/meth addict population are rampant.
https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/racial-profiling-via-...
It's primary audience appears to be "homeowners" (owners from 1-50 years they do not seem to care) who might want to sell their home or are interested in service for their home.
So two years later and I personally still see the almost identical "those people" posts across all of San Francisco. A valiant effort but without serious moderation it is meaningless.
At a certain point mods in the nextdoor community need to either ban people completely which would cuts away at their fantasy ethos or shadow ban people which basically is the same result.
good fences make great neighbors
I wouldn't call it racism, but it is other-ism, and it comes from all corners. This person doesn't look like he belongs in our neighborhood -- often it's more about social economic / class -- what vehicle they're driving, how they're dressed, are they a race that doesn't typically live in our mostly diverse neighborhood.
We have a lot of burglaries and it just drives up the paranoia.
I haven't noticed overt racism on ND as much as crotchetiness, though. A lot of complaints about the local ice cream truck, for example, and about the number of camper vans parked along certain roads that people are using as housing.
note I have no idea. just guessing at possibilities
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-offi...
...also combined with a lot of easy pickings: people who don't always lock their windows, don't lock their gates, ...
However, I did notice that there were a lot of bike parking / bike racks that were awfully missdesigned/overengineered. There were racks that could be opened to put your bike in but many people did not know that so they locked their bike to the rack but when you opened the rack, you could simply slide the lock out. In many cases, the bike was only locked to the rack, which meant you could drive away with the bike without ever picking the lock.
I've made the same mistake for about two weeks, until I noticed that this retarded bike rack mechanism left my bike completely unprotected. Afterwards, I always checked other bikes and I frequently found others that you could just pick up and drive away with.
One of the best, if not the best, bike rack designs is this here: https://www.bikecitizens.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Good...
Very simple design, it can a whole lot of bikes and it's as secure as it can get.
This. They hate "poor white trash" just as much.
https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ...
My hazy understanding of American racism, which I now know to be wrong, was that it's always been getting better. Sure, slavery, but then the Civil War and an upward climb from there to the Civil Rights era and beyond. Except for the South, I thought.
It turns out the US had period after Reconstruction, know as the Nadir [1], when anti-black sentiment and action grew significantly. A wave of ethnic cleansing circa 1890-1920 led to a lot of all-white towns all over the country, ones where non-whites weren't allowed after dark. (Thus the title of the book.)
Chapter 11, "The Effect of Sundown Towns on Whites", talks a lot about how growing up in white-only areas leads white people to have enormously distorted perceptions of the dangers of black people. After reading that chapter, the RacistDoor phenomenon made a lot more sense to me.
[1] https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=the...
Racism and, more importantly, white supremacy is an all-American concept which seems to be inextricably woven through the whole society.
https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/ - highly recommend this.
In the Rocky Mountain region that I was in (and that I was born in), there was no history of slavery or any sort of modern diversity (it was all coal-miners, oil-drillers, and ranchers all the time), so I think we can take that one off the table. As we can Japan - because their issues with racism are different from ours (in the US).
That leaves good old Yankee-land and "the South". I am by birth and by culture, not a Southerner, but I will declare that if anyone sees more racism in Shreveport LA (for example) than they do in Chicago or even Terre Haute IN, that is a person that I would assert has never been to the south. I believe generally (based on a whole lotta anecdotal observation - some of which are turning my aging locks white), that Y2K Yankee-land is far more racist than Y2K Dixie. I don't know what it was like in 1960 - the race riots of Detroit in '68 - white flight to the suburbs - any of that. But I do believe that you are giving your own region a pass and the south a diss if you believe that they are more racist than you.
EDIT: And it isn't necessarily germane to my parent comment, but I see a lot of use of the phrase "dog-whistle" with no specifics. Can we see more specifics, so that the lesser aware of us can know what you are even talking about, or even get educated on what constitutes a "dog-whistle"?
Quick, let's do some free association and tell me the first skin color that comes to mind: thugs, real americans, inner-city youth, hard-working american, welfare queen, illegal immigrant.
If so, then, alright, the only thing on your list that makes me think of somebody that might be darker beige than me (I assume this is where you are trying to go?) is illegal immigrant, where I do assume "Mexican born national". Is that racist, or just a recognition of how our borders go and the fact that few Canadians come to the US to pick our tomatoes?
No, "dog-whistle" terms seem mundane and can be played off as having the dictionary definition, but to certain people they have a very specific meaning. Your neighbor might say he wants to keep "thugs" out of your neighborhood, which you can naively infer to mean "violent criminals," but to other racists it's a synonym for "niggers." Or maybe you do know what he means, so you call him on it... and he asserts that it just means "violent criminals." That's what makes a dog-whistle.
I see enough references to the phrase (like: "everyone knows this is a dog-whistle for xyz") that I started to wonder if that phrase wasn't in itself, in certain contexts, a form of virtue-signaling itself. Maybe I was wrong.
Q: How is it that all the anti-racists know all the code-words that make up a dog whistle for racists? Isn't it supposed to be, by definition, unhearable?
To contrast, I used to have a couple of friends who would use the term "friend" as a stand in for n* when talking about people in public. I figured it out from being around them and hearing how they stressed it differently than normal, but any random stranger wouldn't have picked up on it.
Or with "saying the quiet parts loud", where people who aren't as good at dog whistling drift into being more explicit. Or people who are explicit get pushed into saying things where the racial connection is more easily denied. The Trump administration's Muslim ban is good example of that. They started out advocating for a ban with strong religious and racial components. When the public and the courts said no, they iterated to something less blatant. They will keep rinsing and repeating until something gets through.
No, I am saying the phrase is meant to be interpreted in a racial context by the target audience while passing off as non-racial. Non of the phrases I listed are racial by the dictionary definition.
The difference between a dog-whistle and a regular whistle is that dog-whistles are inaudible to humans and go unnoticed, hence the "dog-whistle" tag for such coded language.
"Dog-whistle politics is political messaging employing coded language that appears to mean one thing to the general population but has an additional, different or more specific resonance for a targeted subgroup."
Lingua Franca had an interesting example recently - http://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2017/09/28/the-s...
“The man should be in a pub on the banks of the Liffey.”
This was definitely a lesson I learned. I grew up in the midwest, and because racism of the Jim Crow sort was more blatant in the south, I thought we were relatively innocent. But I no longer think that.
As an example, I got a reproduction of the Negro Motorist Green Book. [1] It was a good exercise trying to imagine planning one of the road trips I've been on, but only staying at the small number of places that would accept black people.
I also learned from that book that there was one town in Michigan where well-off black people went to vacation: Idlewild. [2] It was created because black people in Chicago and Detroit were excluded from other vacation spots. I grew up not far from this place and nobody ever mentioned the history to me. Not accidental, I'm sure, that white people forgot all about it.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Power_Mixtape_1967...
I believe it's available on Netflix.
And there's nothing rigorous about the piece linked.
Worth noting that the U.S. population has grown significantly since 1850. I'd be more interested in the relative numbers (e.g. the percentage of black men incarcerated today v. the percentage enslaved before 1850).
If you want straight-up hard numbers, I can't recommend any resource more then DrugWarFacts:
Racism and, more importantly, white supremacy is an all-American concept
This is ridiculously narrow conception of slavery and racism. Slavery is neither "American" nor "white" - it's an insidious and evil institution that has been imposed on a wide number of people and races, even during the American/European slave period.
An even larger African slave trade existed in the Middle East and North Africa. Even the word "Slave" is derived from "Slav" - my people - who were enslaved by Spanish Muslims. In fact, slavery still exists and thrives in parts of Sudan and Benin today. Not the mention the massive amounts of slaves that existed in South East Asia or the fact that slavery was an established institution in the Americas much before Europeans came here.
There were more slaves in India than there were in the entire western-hemisphere. China had slavery as recently as 1949 (they didn't outlaw it until 1910) and was recently embroiled in a slave controversy in 2007! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_slave_scandal)
In fact, it's Western-European society that has largely been critical of slavery, as they were the first nations to outlaw it (Denmark and Britain), and have organized against Slavery while many countries around the world were still practicing slavery (see the 1926 Slavery Convention held by the League of Nations)
He was talking about white supremacy, not slavery. And the phrase "all-American concept" does not mean that America invented it. He means that it's intrinsic, pervasive.
Which is pretty obviously true. America was white supremacist from the get-go. If not, we wouldn't have needed the 15th amendment, which came circa a century late. We wouldn't have needed 8 different civil rights acts (so far). The notion of whiteness is something America helped create and is continually redefining so as to help maintain white supremacy.
I'd urge you to reconsider the way you view sources and the media.
"Coates is unabashedly biased and not a great source."
This is a non-sequitur and a misdirection tactic commonly used by people who want to try and discredit arguments without actually achieving anything of the sort. Much like you've done.
"Bias" is not an issue. Legitimacy is. Can we trust Coates writing about race? The question really expands to, can we trust an erudite and eloquent black man with a lot of lived experience, to contextualize and write about that experience? I don't see why we shouldn't. I imagine both of us have much less to offer the debate than Coates, so why not trust Coates?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1886754.The_Trouble_They...
I told him essentially he needed to calm down and avoid conflict (this user is always getting into fights) in addition to that it wasn't in my power as lead to ban people. He said I was being "very unprofessional" and threatened to go to the local newspaper about how we weren't taking his reports seriously - as if they'd care. I explained that I don't work for NextDoor, I'm just one of his neighbors with slightly more power than him.
He told me to "never contact him again" lol. OK. Good deal.
Anyway, I thought that struck kind of close to this.
They are ban happy there! I got banned for calling someone a NIMBY because they were protesting a stop sign at an intersection two separate pedestrians got hit at because "it fostered increased traffic and urbanization."
there's definitely no way to get a pre-paid visa / giftcard and set an address to it to use as verification for next-door
edit: next door recently asked it's own members to verify their neighbors... because that's always reliable
Much like some people suggest that we should choose politicians at random, and that merely wanting to be one should exclude you from being one, the same should be said for HOA Boards. The kind of people who relish that "authority" are the last people who should have it.
fwiw you can still see the house from satellite / 3d
But, we need to be sharing what people are saying with the press as one of our next steps. I noticed this problem with ND so we started blogging about the issues separately and quoting folks without identifying details in Medium, so that the press could quote Medium instead of Nextdoor. (edit: https://twitter.com/topangafrontier is the best summary link)
Also, what kind of journalist is going through Nextdoor looking for stories? That's like the laziest, most pedantic muckraking possible. Can you find no one to get a quote from?
What makes Nextdoor special over something like Facebook? Especially when you consider the origins of Facebook (school networks, etc).
There are also local newspapers. I do understand Nextdoor's motivation here, but it does seem a little odd. Journalists typically get stories by talking to people, and local journalists by talking to local people. Nextdoor is a specific avenue to do exactly that. And half the complaints on Nextdoor are things the author would probably love to have featured in the news (though hopefully they won't be, no-one needs to encourage the NIMBYs), and might be ones that would benefit from a reporter investigating them.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that it's actually a good thing to just throw up our hands and say that there's simply no such thing as expectation of privacy and, if it's that important to you, just keep your mouth shut.
That's how I feel when people say "oh there's no expectation of privacy cause you can just sign up with a fake name on a gift card."
Private for them but everyone else can get rekt.
That might have something to do with where you live. In our neighborhood, it's more of a status report on various happenings like crime, city projects, etc. Here's an example from today: someone posted they were putting a 9' x 6' Persian Rug on the curb, free for the taking.
People who live by the maxim "don't put anything in writing that you wouldn't want people to see on the front page of the New York Times" apparently decided archiving controversial internal party squabbles was a good idea, and acted surprised when stuff showed up on the front page of the New York Times.
Almost nobody lives by that maxim; they might have a few decades ago, but the utility of low-latency, asynchronous, low-ambiguity communications channels now available, which inherently involved text or recorded content with the same vulnerability, is so high that people who might have lived by that maximizes when writing meant dead-tree memoranda and files no longer do.
But, even when it was more current, I suspect that was, as the saying goes, always observed more in the breach than anything else.
Either the attackers expended less effort on Macron HQ vs DNC and never got to the juicy stuff, or someone within Macron camp ran a tight ship on what can and cannot go through insecure channels.
With Gmail, big G has everything. More relevant to the grandparent, the recipients of your mail have everything you send them. They can forward it anywhere and there's nothing you can do about it.
”Dance Like No One is Watching; Email Like It May One Day Be Read Aloud in a Deposition”
You’re taking a serious gamble if you assume your email will be private forever, as certain politicians now know all too well.
[1] https://blogs.harvard.edu/infolaw/2006/10/17/digital-is-fore...
Private silos exist, but people need to learn that they come down to trust and that this circle of trust is much wider than the realize. Even if you know and trust every single person in a group to not share information, do you trust fiends and family that might share the computer, from the creepy uncle to the twelve year old cousin? Do you trust that the can secure their own home network? Do you trust that they won't connect their device to a wifi honey pot? IME most people overestimate the amount of people they can trust, underestimate the amount of people they need to trust and are oblivious to the fact that once something has breached this trust circle it's breached for good.
Not everything should be globalised and ripped apart from any private context. Frankly this is a lesson we collectively need to learn IMO.
I get that nothing can anymore completely accomplish a total sort of privacy or other perfect reduction of scope, but that as a theme does have value IMO.
I'm pretty sure that some of the content posted to Nextdoor could be of public interest, and it would make sense that a local newspaper or TV station may wish to report on it, just as they may report on the minutes of city council meetings or organized events.
I think the issue here is when you combine a local newspaper with the global reach of the Internet, and something that was meant for a small audience is now being shared way outside of its original target audience. I sure hope people don't go posting the minutia of my local neighborhood to BuzzFeed or reddit.
Regardless, this is just for show. This sort of policy isn't going to make any difference. We've seen these sorts of scraping issues in the past with other walled gardens: site owners make a big deal about scraping, shut down their APIs, etc. It hasn't stopped content from being scraped and reported on. Reporters will continue to report; users will continue to make anonymous story tips; and new accounts will sign up after old accounts get locked out.
I see lot of troll potential here :)
There were little inconveniences like no coffee provided at a lot of workplaces and liquor restrictions, but if you love outdoor stuff that alone can make it a pretty nice place to live.
My complaint wasn't prompted by an uninformed view of fellow Utah residents.
And your view is uninformed, because it’s anecdotal, one data point, based on your microcosm of experience, just like mine.
There’s not enough information here to generalize, but I still have real friends from having lived there, and I think it’s appropriate to offer a counterpoint, lest anyone interpret a one off comment as a truism.
The real problem is when a religion becomes oppressive, dangerous, or...well I’m sure you know the pitfalls we’ve learned of over 5000 years.
A fair number of people here are almost militantly against religion in all forms. I happen to take the opinion that it’s not inherently evil, that some good comes from it, and we should judge every situation on its own ethics rather than alienate such a large class of people.
That, along with maybe bot-generated fake posts to add deniability.
Nextdoor is fighting a losing battle.
It's a stupid rule, and imho only there to make the users feel like they are in a unique clique. There is no real way to enforce it, nor any penalities.
So basically, just PR.
You cannot expect only one person to make a deduction from information points.
Edit: or are we talking 'specific headlines'. So if you want to share just alter the headline?
Look I can't see any way this could work in reality, it's just PR imho.
With a little bit of moderator judgment a rule like that can be enforced. It's ridiculous to say that these bans somehow can't be done, that moderators will look at a proof that their system is imperfect and come undone.
It won't be perfect, but it's eminently doable.
If some unaffiliated party can come up with the edge case easily, your rule should have a guideline about it--even if said guideline is only internal documentation.
To be fair, were I running this moderation system, I would simply say anything unclear would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and those decisions would set precedent like in the actual legal system.
Sure there is. Break the rules and you get Permabanned!
> What if you share with a friend who works for a newspaper? Or someone who works with a blogger.
Permabanned!
> Insert other weird edge case here....
Again, Permabanned! No exceptions.
Don't think its fair? Well I don't care. It is their site, they don't have to be fair.
Don't want to lose access to the hip neighborhood social network? Then don't break go around making things public that were supposed to be private. Don't toe the line with weird edge cases either.
Yeah, sure, you could go all secret agent and take all the precautions and not get caught, or try and get around onerous multi-account protections that they have in place. But that sounds like a lot of work that most people aren't going to do. People are lazy, and you don't have to catch 100% of everybody in order to make people afraid enough so that they mostly follow the rules.
It's unenforcable.
Reporters reveal their sources all the time. For example, when they quote someone. Maybe they'd think to protect you or maybe they will make a mistake.
Enforcement doesn't have to be 100% for it to be an effective deterrent. Maybe they have access to your IP logs and can track your viewing history down. You don't know what tools they do or do not have.
And even if it truly IS completely unenforceable, well who says that the average user even knows that? They might just play it safe because they don't want to get banned. That's how rules and enforcement works.
If that includes making any group decisions that affect others in the neighbourhood, I believe it's important that at least the possibility of journalists making it public remains.
There are all sorts of organisations that are free to choose their members and keep their meeting private. But the focus on specific neighbourhoods changes the power dynamics somewhat, because you cannot escape such a group's power (if it has any).
It may be comparable to professional associations like the various local bar associations: they are required to admit any local lawyer in good standing, because their decisions can affect everyone practicing law within their jurisdiction.
That having been said, it seems that as more local community interaction becomes digital and starts to fall within walled-gardens, many things, including reporting get a bit trickier.
Thus far, we have no legal concept around the notion of a public digital space, if there is such a thing, and what privacy rights do, or explicitly do not exist.
I'd argue that things like NextDoor might push us into having to think about the concept of just what is/could be viewed as having a reasonable expectation for privacy.
I can't expect that my speech or even image is private if I go outside on the public street, for example... so for sites like NextDoor, is there a threshold where they become so dominant or so a part of our daily lives/community interaction where we should start to see them as public spaces with certain expectations around rights (or lack thereof)? When it's small, the private club idea fits well – but if it becomes dominant and essential to community life – do we need to rethink that idea?
(Not that I believe you have a right to privacy when you organise as a neighbourhood group and basically act like a tiny, kleptocratic, unelected apartheid regime.)
Nextdoor uses real name with real address etc, and it seems to be pretty useful for the neighborhood news and events etc, I don't see other close competitors.
But then, I hope there is an alternative.
http://fortune.com/2017/05/21/nextdoor-revenue/
If very thing goes right, it could be another facebook, I'd be interested in its IPO.
We are on a march to losing our collective faith in journalism and leading the way are careless reporters and editors who fancy themselves public advocates.
Neither applies here.
Is it really correct to say NextDoor is a public forum? You can only access the content if you live within the specified area and you agree to their terms of service. What boundaries or factors are used when deciding if something is considered private or public?
Why don't companies using online services suffer similar issues? If you leak private company communications, that's usually going to be grounds for termination. But what other legal action can they take against you? Normally you'd sign an NDA to prevent communications from being leaked, however I'm not sure what legal repercussions are available once it's broken. Would it be technically feasible to create a social network that required signing an NDA to join?
What's funny is that it doesn't explicitly say that they're endorsements from these outlets, they're just there. I was always under the impression that this isn't technically legal, but I'm no legal expert.
I know this is off-topic, but can anyone just add a banner of media outlet logos to their site/blog? There's definitely an implied status claim being made here. Why else would one company randomly post other corporate logos that aren't paid for or explicitly endorsed?
This will be interesting.
I might even say that NextDoor's restriction on my content is more upsetting because I expect everything I post on social media (which I do on purpose) to be part of the public domain. The idea that I, or reporters, can't use it as such, makes it seem like they are exercising ownership over my content.
NextDoor is restrictive by design---having your discussions be private is the entirety of their upsell to use them instead of Facebook groups.
Bring me to court about that one.
(1) the function of the site is like a private club whose secrets are vital to its continued existence,
(1a) the language in the ToS supports (1)
(2) the private news items shared there are in the public interest and likely not reported on otherwise (at least the ones that were disclosed publicly).
No one likes chilled speech but there's plenty of examples of legitimate agreements for non-disclosure. Those agreements provide mutual benefit and could be threatened by a ruling in favor of a claimant against NextDoor.
See, for example, the Boy Scouts vs a long list of gays, atheists, and girls, where this was affirmed numerous times by the Supreme Court.
That is ... not supported by law. You have strongly confused prior restraint laws (IE what you'd be punished for publishing and what people can prevent you from publishing) and contract law (IE whether they can legally keep you off the site, enjoin you from doing so further, and receive money damages).
Make me.
If I want to report on a post by say some scrubby Islamic State propagandist I'm going to do it. They can ban me but it will just become part of the reporting. Then give me a few minutes and I'll be back on the site doing my thing again.
Terrible terms of service don't make a private garden. Neither does IP/phone number fingerprinting. I agree with you though, it is not that complicated.
It's not that easy to get an unlimited supplies of proxies that are located in a single neighborhood.
This is pretty disappointing, but more than that, pointless to try to police..
Lots of "Where was that police car that went down my street headed?", "Escaped Animal", "Flea Market swap", "Promoting my home researched Christian eschatology book published on vanity press".
Occastionally there's useful information like City Council issues, major road closures, etc. But As others have said a lot of NIMBYs, armchair patriots, and thinly disguised racisim.
I guess it's good having news media pick up this stuff violates the terms of service.
It does have a "delete my account" feature. So it has at least one useful feature.
There were crimes reported, and to be honest the most frequent posts I did see were for moving boxes
...and what's preventing the reporters from creating new accounts? journalistic integrity? threat of lawsuit (not sure what standing they have)? also, how do they track down who the source is?
Better idea is to find a home for sale without a tenant and claim that as your address and hound the mailbox for the next few days.
I also don't think Nextdoor carss about duplicate accounts. I kept my account from my old neighborhood and created a new one for my current home using another email address. I don't try to hide it... Same name, I address etc.
You can communicate with people in your immediate neighborhood or with people in nearby neighborhoods.
As you can imagine, what people talk about really depends on the character of your real world neighborhood and the people who live there. That's why I would hesitate to characterize the entire product based on any individual experience with it. It really depends on the neighborhood.
I've personally found it to be a mix of extremely useful and meh, depending on the use-case and context. There's definitely immense potential.
It's one of the more under the radar billion dollar companies: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nextdoor