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Comment by troupe | Hacker News Reader

The article says she had some "poor advising" at the community college and she is currently trying to get a degree in music theater.

Liz spent 6 years enrolled at a community college without getting a degree and then transferred to a school to work on bachelors where she thinks she'll need to spend another 2.5 years. It doesn't really give the details of what happened during those 6 years, but if she was able to stay enrolled for 12 semesters without getting an associate degree there seem to be problems that go much deeper than a lack of resources to go to school.

If the advisors were seriously giving her advice that would prevent her from getting a 2-year degree in 6 years (even allowing for her trying to figure out what she wanted to study) the school should be liable.

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From the article:

> Like many students, she took classes she didn’t need, partly due to poor advising and partly because she was feeling her way toward a major.

I taught at a community college. A lot of people there are really just feeling around for what to do with their lives. A lot of them also didn't do so well in high school and needed to skip ACT/SAT requirements to get in to a 4 year school to do what they really needed. This translates into lots of general ed classes/GPA boosters.

When a student doesn't know what they want to do, it's hard to give them good advice. And if they didn't take school seriously in high school, it's harder for them to start doing it more seriously now.

Combine that with not knowing where you're sleeping that night, or trying to concentrate on an empty stomach, and yea, it'll take you a while to dig out.

I learned a lot of empathy teaching at a community college. Now, sure, we could talk about "personal responsibility", but there are a lot of things at play here. Lots of responsibility to share.

I understand that and if someone took 4 years to get a 2-year degree, maybe it would make sense. Keep in mind somehow she had enough resources (loans, financial aid, etc.) she should have been able to complete three 2-year associates degrees from scratch. Even if she was feeling her way toward a major, took some classes that she didn't end up needing, and had to take some remedial classes, there is no way someone who was trying (and it sounds like she is) shouldn't have been able to graduate in 6 years. The article said she talked to an advisor and implies she was trying to follow the advice she was given. If that is the case, this really should be considered educational malpractice on the part of the college.

That's her side of the story. Which I'm not saying is wrong. But, again, it's awful hard to advise people who don't have any direction.

I also didn't notice if she went full time or not. I had many students who took 4 years to get a single degree, because they only took 3-5 credits a term. Our program was 68 credits. They worked 40 hours a week.

I had young adults in my class who would attend every 8AM class - never missed a day. But they never turned in work. I asked a few of them why. Same story: "If I'm going to school, my parents stop harassing me." Other students didn't know what they wanted to do, but being in school deferred student loan payments, so they just kept enrolling on purpose, kicking a can down the road.

There are a lot of young people who do not know what they want to do in life. Heck, there are older folks like me who still don't.

I miss the hell out of teaching, but I don't miss seeing students go into massive debt aimlessly floundering their way through school. And I don't like that colleges take advantage of that fact either.

It seems to me that system that have you choose major at first instead of expecting you to continue "well rounded" unfocused general education would be better for those students.

Even if some would transfer midway, having to pick up goal and then have clear path to it would be easier for less preared students.

That's the system many universities have. Community colleges are intended to serve students who are unprepared for universities, can't afford to attend universities, or have other nontraditional backgrounds. Most community college administrators would argue that your suggested changes would make the college less able to serve its students.

There is always a tension between meeting the needs of the nontraditional student body and making sure students make academic progress. I agree with you that community colleges are not balancing that properly, but I don't think that something as strict as you suggest would be the answer. Making students choose a major when they don't know what they want to do with their lives is going to result in a lot of wasted time if they change their minds.

Most of the majors outside of STEM fields end up having the same coursework requirements anyway. Even at the University of California, many students spend the first two years taking the same courses. So, it's not clear that making people choose a major at community college would make much of a difference, except for STEM majors. It's only after transferring that most of the major-specific courses are encountered.

The aspect of community college that stood out most to me was how you could avoid interacting with the administration other than registering for classes. I think it would be a great step for community colleges to require every student to meet with an academic adviser at least once per year. Of course, that would probably require more advisers.

Many community college students aren't even trying to earn a degree. They just want to take specific classes to learn new skills or because it's fun. Nothing wrong with that, and no need to force them to pick a major.

Yes, but this student had been trying to earn a 2-year degree for 6 years.

>I taught at a community college. A lot of people there are really just feeling around for what to do with their lives. A lot of them also didn't do so well in high school and needed to skip ACT/SAT requirements to get in to a 4 year school to do what they really needed. This translates into lots of general ed classes/GPA boosters.

Then I think we need to stop expecting that there's going to be some special path they'll ever take in life that's specific to them as individuals, at least work-wise. We should instead set up a general path that someone can take to earn a living without needing a personal drive in any particular direction, and let them be a unique individual outside work.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I think that pretty much describes an Associates degree in pretty much anything. You graduate with a 2-year degree of mostly general ed, but a few classes in something you think you might be interested in. If you want to get a 4-year degree you should have a much better idea of what types of things you'd be willing to spend another 2 or 3 years learning. If you don't go on for a 4-year degree you at least have an associate degree which is a huge step in employability above just having a high school diploma.

I transferred out of community college, and I can definitely confirm that it is possible to stay there for pretty much forever without making meaningful progress, as long as you don't flunk out.

It was also very frustrating to transfer out. The transfer office made multiple mistakes that would have prevented my transfer if I had not noticed them myself. This was at a California community college with one of the highest transfer rates in the state.

Unfortunately, people who grow up poor are not socialized to be persistent and successful in navigating the kind of bureaucratic systems one encounters in college admissions, transfers, and student loans. So, I'm not surprised Liz was stuck in community college for a long time, although 6 years is excessive.

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