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Comment by adriand | Hacker News Reader

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that:

- mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous;

- requires a clear majority to be considered valid;

- mandates the involvement of all provinces and First Nations in negotiations following a vote in favour of secession;

- and stipulates that secession, if it proceeds, would require an amendment to the constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

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I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent. Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't have leverage with Catalonia.

Spain definitely would have leverage with Catalonia if it acts (acted?) in a responsible and sane manner -- Catalonia's economy would take a huge hit if it doesn't achieve international recognition or EU membership, and Spain can influence that quite a bit.

A quick googling would show you Quebec is also 20% of Canadian GDP and 15% of Canadian population.

Quebec moreover cuts off maritime provinces from the rest of Canada

At the time of the referendum Quebec was subsidizing the rest of Canada through equalization payments. More recently they've been on the receiving end but that has not been true for most of its history.

The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote.

There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole.

For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to secede was a simple majority of people who currently have a London postcode.

As a catalan, I have to say that I don't care if we pay more taxes. What I find annoying is that PP, party that uses hate against catalans to win votes and has corruption rooted and proved since it's foundation, keeps raising election after election. The economical matter by itself is just a selfish argument that I don't share. I care for fighting corruption and for not being treated as a second class citizen because I was taught two languages in my childhood. Lies are spread constantly about how non-catalans are mistreated and nobody seems to care that there is no proof supporting that.

Please, stop saying it is a money related problem.

Catalonia has no better corruption track record than the rest of Spain. Basically what you are saying is that you don't like the majority party, and therefore want to form your own nation. That's not how democracy works. Catalonia already enjoys a strong autonomy status, stronger than any other region of Spain and arguably stronger than any other region of Europe.

I agree PP isn't optimal, but I fail to see any real alternative coming from Catalonia or the entire region that is Spain.

I believe you when you say it's not about money for you. That doesn't mean it's not for many others. However, my concern is more about the principle of the right to secede.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens.

If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

Why? I don't follow your idea. Could you explain?

What part you don't understand?

I'll try again.

All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.

That is not clearer, at least to me.

>All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.

This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?

All Spaniards have the right, not only a part of Spaniards (like those living in Catalonia).

You're advocating making the people in Catalonia prisoners to the rest of Spain.

It's like saying that the Welsh should have a right to vote on the independence of Scotland.

They're saying, I think, that if you're going to have a referendum on independence, ever citizen of the existing state should vote, not just members of the proposed state. Otherwise, you could just have thousands of tiny groups of people each declaring their own independent state.

As a UK citizen, I would have preferred it if our recent referendum had been voted on by all members of the EU, rather than just British citizens.

I know you're not supposed to comment about downvotes, but seriously people? I literally asked for clarification and got -3 for it. Easy on the downvote button, people.

Yes, it's hard to follow the logic. But still a lot of people seem to think that all Spain should vote on a referendum on whether Catalonia should be independent. Go figure.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. The sovereignty of Catalonia falls on theirs (if they wish so).

One way to look at it is that the sovereign country of Spain has a right to split itself up in two countries. Therefore all Spaniards should have a say.

Another way to look at it is that every sub-entity of any country has a right to unilaterally declare itself independent for whatever reason (often because it is wealthier).

I think neither of these views is sufficient. We have to accept that this is a tricky question that is very difficult to solve in a principled way.

How about the third way, where a region is increasingly unhappy with the central government (look at the election results in the past 20 years), and wants to have a legal option of getting out of the union if/when they start feeling opressed.

People have been talking about this for decades and nothing has been done.

How do you think people in Galicia and Basque Country are feeling now? Is this what should make them proud of being Spanish?

Also many people are tired of the monarchy.

Where do you draw the line so that not every wealthy region or city unhappy with its net tax payer status secedes from poorer parts of the country?

You say that the Catalonian people feel oppressed. By what standard is that actually the case though? As far as I know, Catalonia enjoys very far reaching autonomy within Spain.

Let me play whataboutism. Cannot we say that in this case the independence of Kosovo should be decided by all citizens of Serbia (who are against it)? And independence of ex-soviet satellite countries should be decided by all citizens of ex-USSR which means they have to return back to Mother Russia?

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