Comment by pjc50 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pjc50 | Hacker News Reader

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> worst-of-both-worlds hybrid of subsistence tribalism and wage-earning capitalism

The bottom end of capitalism often looks quite like subsistence tribalism.

> many people simply report being unable to afford the expenses of a temporary relocation away from one's regular job for a disaster that's forecasted to perhaps occur 3-5 days out

Well, yes. You can be sure that everyone outside the disaster zone will be along to restore capitalism before they restore electricity. The disaster is temporary but the economic structure remains. It's not even clear that being homeless in NYC on your own is better than being homeless in the ruins of your community. It may be better to turn up to your non-functional workplace and keep your job than evacuate and lose it.

http://www.naplesnews.com/story/weather/hurricanes/2017/09/0...

(I think well-off people underestimate how much ordinary capitalism looks like imminent disaster to people at the sharp end - it's no use if the stores are open and the hospitals working if you can't afford food or healthcare.)

> You can be sure that everyone outside the disaster zone will be along to restore capitalism before they restore electricity

"Keep your government hands off my medicare."

> You can be sure that everyone outside the disaster zone will be along to restore capitalism before they restore electricity

What does this mean?

The system is more important than its worst-case outcomes, particularly for people not at the bottom.

Banks saying your mortgage or credit cards or student loan is in default before the city is recovered enough for you to earn if a paycheck again.

My personal anecdote has been the complete opposite of that. A few days after Irma my bank called to tell me late fees and penalties had been waived for the month. A week later they called to inform me that the program had been extended through the end of the year. That was just something they did without asking me if I needed any assistance or anything. If the end of the year wasn't going to be sufficient they would be happy to work with me on an individual level.

Is it the fault of the bank that you haven’t created a rainy day fund? Nobody forced you to get a mortgage, credit cards or student loans. Common sense indicates people should have 6 months of living expenses saved. Many people can’t afford to do that, but then if that’s the case, why are people incurring debts? A student loan implies a college degree, which implies that we aren’t talking about the profoundly poor, but some standard issue millennial.

And student loan default is really hard to do; you can get forebearances for practically any reason. There is zero excuse to default on student loans; they have every payment plan imaginable.

Capitalism doesn't mean you don't pool resources together, it just means pooling resources is voluntary.

Puerto Rico's population is close to 3.5 million people. How large of a population do you think it was able to support before industrialized capitalism?

"The bottom end of capitalism looks like subsistence tribalism"; how powerful, how insightful! Why don't we start with the fact that millions of those people would not be alive in the first place without the modern, evil, capitalist system?

There's a difference between demonizing the entire system, and just noticing its rough edges and failure modes. The latter enables discussion about how to mitigate the failure modes while keeping the overall system running.

Please don't steer things into a generic political debate. From the HN guidelines:

"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

The article we all came here to discuss is focused on the financial systems people rely upon for daily life and subsistence during disaster. Financial systems are inherently political, hard stop.

Discussing the political systems that promote the reliance on the somewhat fragile systems of technology the article is discussing is not unrelated nor generic.

If you feel that politics is a flamewar topic, please do civic engagement a favor and learn how to practice political discussion with less flammability.

Then flag the post and let the moderators handle it. There is nothing more obnoxious than lecturing other people on how you think they should express themselves.

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