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A Catalan here. Quite a bad description, I think. We should remember that Catalonia had its own language forbidden to even speak in the street for 40 years during Franco's dictatorship. Language and culture was kept alive thanks of people keeping it in secrecy.

When "democracy" returned, some of the competences they had before the war were returned to the government.

After 6 years of demonstrations of 2-3 million (out of 7million) asking to hold a referendum and receiving NO to any request, it was announced and proposed one year ago in order to agree it with Spanish government, but they would not even discuss it. In the end the unilateral way is the only way to hold this referendum.

Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Isn't it democracy? People who doesn't want independence can say NO. Laws should serve people's desires, not forbid participation and opinion.

> Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences?

Doesn't that happen all the time in polls and in local, regional, and general elections?

Yes, and after last elections the majority of the Catalan parliament is pro-independence. Instead of proclaming independence, a referendum is proposed, which has the support of 80% of the population in Catalonia.

Yeah I know that. The point I was trying to make is that the referendum wasn't deemed illegal because "the government of Catalonia isn't allowed to ask people's preferences". It is allowed and it happens all the time.

You can do it your own way, if it is done just how I say.

Alternatively: You can do it your own way, as long as it doesn't conflict with the law. Like all other things in a democracy really.

Another Catalan here, a Catalan that has lived in Italy and France.

In the dictatorship Catalan was forbidden, but now Catalan in Catalonia is the only language used in schools (the teachers are told to only speak in that language even to the parents, search for "immersió lingüística"), the official buildings, hospital papers, and so on. Is this what you would call repression or not-democracy?

Now, in Spain other languages (I am using the word languages again) are official, and they are the language the teachers use at schools. Do you know what they call other languages in France or Italy? dialects! They are not official, of course, nor used as official languages in schools or public buildings.

So Spain is even more democratic than Italy and France in that issue, but people are complaining in Catalonia because of the adoctrination, and millions of euros spent by the Catalan government. Don't fool yourself. A referendum in a moment of maximum propaganda by the Catalan government is really democracy?

The conservative Catalan government, as the conservative Spanish government, have a lot of cases of corruption, and since all this irrationality nobody is talking about that. Last week Spain freed two Catalan politicians from the current governing party from going to jail because of the Pretoria case, but almost nobody mentioned that. Do you really thing this chaos is not premeditated?

Catalan is a lenguage... because it is. Don' play demagogy around that

*[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

> but now Catalan in Catalonia is the only language used in schools(...), the official buildings, hospital papers, and so on. Is this what you would call repression or not-democracy?

Isn't this the point of autonomy? You decide what languages to teach/use in your institutions. We can discuss whether this is a good idea or not. Or whether what you say is true in reality or not. But it's the Catalans' decision, that's what autonomy is for.

> So Spain is even more democratic than Italy and France in that issue, but people are complaining in Catalonia because of the adoctrination, and millions of euros spent by the Catalan government.

Comparisons are meaningless in this situations. Maybe Spain is more "democratic" (if you say so) than France(which is not hard to beat honestly, considering the status of non-French languages in France). But one could also say that Spain is less democratic than Switzerland wrt languages, and that would be equally meaningless.

The question is whether the autonomy Catalonia receives is enough for the Catalans. That's for the Catalans to decide.

> Do you really thing this chaos is not premeditated?

Are you saying that all the Catalan citizens collaborating and organizing together have been manipulated by the elites for all these years? When did the manipulation start exactly? Would you mind sharing sources that support this?

"We should remember that Catalonia had its own language forbidden to even speak in the street for 40 years during Franco's dictatorship."

We should remember this is a false myth. Catalan was never banned. There were many works in literature and music using Catalan as language during Franco's dictatorship (1939-1975).

For instance, you can check the full list of works that won the Lletra d'Or awards, to the best year work written in Catalan. It started in 1956. Josep Pla, one of the most importan Catalan writters won that award in 1957.

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premi_Lletra_d%27Or

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josep_Pla

And here you can watch Joan Manuel Serrat, singing in Catalan on TVE (the Public Spanish national television). That was in 1968.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6da-yrtBIY

What Franco did was to ban Catalan language from public institutions.

> What Franco did was to ban Catalan language from public institutions.

Like schools. An entire generation missed out on learning Catalan at school like my own mother. Call it whatever you want but that to me feels like forbidding a language.

How is being "forced" to speak the local language any different than what any other schooling system does? Do Madrilenian schools allows kids to choose their primary language, now?

They brought nearly a million muslim people to Catalunya to work

Only ~520k Muslims live in Catalunya. Meanwhile, Andalucia has more than 300k and Madrid over 280k, so it's not like there's such a big difference. http://observatorio.hispanomuslim.es/estademograf.pdf

There has never been such a policy of promoting Muslim immigration in Catalonia. It's one of the many myths propagated by certain groups in Spain.

> This way kids could be directed to be independentist too.

Lived in Catalonia all my life, never had a teacher tell me any of the biases you are stating.

I ought to think you are the one who was directed to think like that?

What you describe here happens not only in Catalonia, but in every other region of the world.

Every government has its media, they control education in a way or another, etc.

However, things get bad when your central government is perceived as acting against yourself in every single move they do.

I agree with you about the risk of this confrontation getting worse. That's why I think a referendum should be made so people can express themselves. People's Party is against, of course. They feel pretty comfortable talking about nothing but Catalonia.

> studing a very biased History full of lies like that Catalunuya was a reign in the past.

I'm not sure what do you mean but Catalonia was in fact a reign in the past (please correct me if I am wrong):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia

I guess he meant kingdom?

Well, it did have kings, and their chronicles were written in Catalan[1].

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crònica_de_Ramon_Muntaner

As a Spaniard, I don't think there's any risk of civil war at all. The most that can happen out of this all is a vote of no-confidence in Congress against the government if they overstep.

You have never lived in Catalonia, have you? Sad to read things like that. Sounds like the speech that the Spanish government gives every other week. Deplorable comment.

Are you implying that catalans brought muslims to work there and that now terrorism is because of that? Aren't you aware this is a global problem and that the catalan government had nothing to do with it?

You shouldn't make such bold statements, less without providing any sort of evidence.

I never felt the need to downvote in HN until I read this.

What does the population in the rest of Spain think about Catalan independence? Would they be happy with Catalonia leaving if its population was in favour of it, or would they prefer that it be forced to remain part of Spain?

Catalonia would have trouble becoming genuinely independent without approval from Spain. Even if they declared independence, and didn't face military action, they'd only have the status of other unrecognized states like Somaliland or to some extent Taiwan.

Catalonia is one of the highest earning areas of Spain, constituting about 20% of the nation's GDP. Their secession would be about as well received as New York or California's from the US.

I have the impression that quite a few conservatives in the US would be thrilled to see New York and California leave, regardless of the economic implications.

I'm sure there are individual Spanish nationalists that think the same about Catalonia. Central governments, on the other hand, generally behave rationally (read: in their own interests) instead of emotionally.

No, the central government is as petty as it gets. For instance when the Canaries banned bull fighting a long time ago there was no problem, but when the Catalans did it recently the ban was overthrown by Spanish courts. Don't get me wrong, the Catalans did not bann it because it is not part of "their culture" or because it is cruel, they just did it to piss off Madrid :-)

Also now for the referendum, the central government sent four thousand police officers in cruise ships to the port of Barcelona to prevent voting. Does not seem particularly grown up to me neither ...

I have been thinking about this as I listen to NPR discuss Catalonia. Not being in Spain or Spanish, I think, what's the big deal, let them become independent.

Then I think about the secession desire of some in California. (I'm on the west coast of US). Personally I don't care. It doesn't really make historical sense, but whatever. Of course the talk is of the whole west coast seceding, and I live in Oregon. I don't want to secede, so that I have a problem with.

I suspect the main issue is money, but the secondary issue would be fear of a slippery slope of secession.

They would notice pretty quickly. The California GDP is ~2.6 trillion. NY is another 1.4. Together, they're about 20% of the US economy.

And that's before we start thinking about agriculture. Of course, in that scenario, water becomes interesting.