Drowning in grain: historically high supplies and low prices
reuters.com
reuters.com
Wheat prices were dropping from too much supply partially attributed to newly expanded prairie farming in the US. But these farmers owed fixed costs on their mortgaged land. So to pay their expenses, they plowed up more prairie and grew more wheat. This compounded the supply problem. Eventually, as wheat piled up at railroad depots unable to be sold, farmers left the plowed prairie fallow and the topsoil blew away.
Source: The Worst Hard Time by Timothy Egan
This led to consolidation, whereby family farmers became much fewer in number, and those that owned and operated larger farms ended up working a 2nd job to cover their living expenses. What used to take a whole family to farm is now nearly entirely automated, causing food prices to continue to decline.
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_St...
I don't see the immediate causal relationship between these: cars are semi-automatically manufactured, but the price of cars hasn't declined anywhere near as much as grain/commodities.
A vehicle that I purchased roughly ten years ago has operated perfectly fine with half of its scheduled oil changes and very little other maintenance. From an engineering perspective I find that mind-blowing: you buy these machines and they operate flawlessly for years, running for thousands of miles, while performing a complex, mechanical task with many moving parts. It's easy to take for granted how marvelous modern automobiles have become.
I haven't considered that! I know it would affect production speed, which could be addressed by increasing capex to build more factories, and which could be funded by increased revenue or investment.
But here's the thing: this car talk doesn't help me understand how agricultural automation caused grain prices to drop. That's my question & what I continually seek clarification on.
BTW you can just ask me what I think instead of offering me some strawman claim to take under my wing. Argue in good faith! If a point of view sounds incredible to you, just go right ahead and assume I must have a more credible point of view that I haven't communicated effectively yet.
The reason I posted is that you did not seem to be. People kept giving you reasons, and you basically discarded them with "But that's not the reason I'm looking for"... or something like that. I'm not even sure how to accurately characterize it. But you definitely seemed to be just unilaterally dismissing the people trying to help you understand and putting no effort into understanding what they were saying. Your second paragraph of this very post reads like that once again.
If that is not the case, well, consider this useful feedback then.
The 'good faith' part which the responders are failing at is badgering me to accept their explanations of car manufacturing in place of farm automation. I accept their explanations but it does not help me understand this:
Why does the GP think that agricultural automation caused the decline in prices?
If I again get a response talking about cars: I don't get it. I don't understand. I can't work it out. I need help to see the connection. It doesn't make sense to me.
Please, help me understand instead of deriding me for not accepting an explanation about car manufacturing as an substitute.
* Increased mechanisation of farming -- direct muscle-power substitution.
* Increased fertiliser application -- removal of binding constraints on plant productivity (see Leibig's Law of the minimum).
* Increased pesticide application -- removal of parasite load and requirements for plant-provided parasite defence from production.
* Breeding for increased caloric yield -- given the reduced demands on non-food plant metabolic expenditure, more of that energy budget is channeled into high-yield varietals and cultivars. (Howard Odum has excellent discussion of pest/productivity dynamics in plant energy budgets.)
* Increased overall agricultural knowledge and management. Approaching the potential envelope by following maximally-effective practices. The ability to motivate large-scale activities quickly (e.g., harvest entire fields within days or hours of optimal state) factors into this.
There's also the fact that the energy substituted for human and animal inputs is subject to a natural capital draw-down understatement of 10^2 to 10^6 magnitude (and more likely the higher). Petroleum and natural gas prices (NG is the primary input to nitrogen fertiliser production) are grossly understated under current economic and accounting models.
For automobiles, the price reductions are less evident in large part because the starting point in the story occurs well into the inputs- and process-modification regime. If you extend the concept of "making cars" to "wagon construction and iron smelting" as of the 16th or 17th century, when wrought iron was fired by charcoal, not rock coal, you'd see fairly comparable efficiency gains. Metalurgy made tremendous leaps in the 19th century (Bessemer steel, 1860s, aluminium smelting, 1880s) as well, far in advance of generally affordable automobiles (1910s) and the explosion in automobile ownership (1950s, for the U.S., later elsewhere).
Robert J. Gordon notes that the rate of patent filings for both automobiles and aircraft peaked by the 1920s. Not that there hasn't been additional technical refinement, but the rate is markedly slower. (See The Rise and Fall of American Growth, 2016.)
Much automobile development has also gone into what I'd call technological "hygiene factors" -- addressing consequences of the initial concept development: safety, pollution, efficiency, and reliability. Another set of developments have gone into factors which influence surface appeal but do little for functional performance, call it bling. (Gordon also addresses, though IMO mis-attributes this factor.)
There are other factors. So long as automobiles are made of steel or aluminium, there's a fixed energy cost in their production (ore reduction, refining, and smelting). Until and unless the underlying materials are substituted, that will remain. Actual assembly is fairly straightforward, and Henry Ford had already done a great deal to optimise assembly-line methods. The increased use of robotics substitutes more for the control element of labour than the energy input (as was the case in ag), resulting in more precision and consistency (and enabling greater complexity -- the Jevons Paradox). The cost of actually programming automated assembly equipment has (at least until recently) rivalled the cost of the robotics themselves. "Cheaply programmable" had not been a feature.
Upshot: Farming as of 1920 offered far more opportunities for optimisation than automobile manufacture did. Automobile manufacturing saw additional, non-performance features added. Automation substituted for different factors than mechanisation. Corn and wheat don't demand cupholders, electric windows, in-vehicle entertainment, and self-parking systems.
You'll see this phenomenon any time an economic agent (individual person, labour market, farmer, extractive resource operator) has some inflexible and fixed minimum set of costs to maintain or they will go out of existence, vs. some variable production function or market price structure.
It's similar with the general aviation phenomenon of "failure to maintain altitude". Aircraft fly fairly well through air. Performance characteristics through land or water are rather less optimal.
We may have reevaluate growing corn in the future if the market does dry up (although for crop rotation purposes that is a hard choice to make), but when the market is buying it at a profitable level, why wouldn't we grow it?
This is entirely why the ethanol subsidy remains. I have high hopes the electric vehicle movement kills this.
This provides a price insurance for farmers. This year's price was set at: $3.96 per bushel for corn and $10.19 per bushel for soybeans (reference - http://www.wisfarmer.com/story/news/2017/03/08/corn-soybean-...)
So with the support prices, unless the yield prices goes below support, people will still grow corn.
As how does it affect Canada? For one, Canada will surely be having it's own insurance program. Second, It is a simple arbitrage play, if Canadian supply is cheaper people will buy cheap corn from there and import to US.
Curious what price level you would say is unprofitable to grow corn?
Interestingly, no. Canada subsidizes farms, whereas the US subsidizes crops.
The main one is production insurance, protecting against disaster events like weather. It doesn't focus on price. Of course, it applies to all crops, not just corn, providing incentive to grow something – whatever is profitable due to market demands – but not corn specifically.
In the last few years there has been an addition of a program that sounds more like you describe the US system, but it seems ill-conceived and not clear how you would ever get your premiums back. I have not enrolled in it personally. It definitely is not impacting my decision to grow corn.
> if Canadian supply is cheaper people will buy cheap corn from there and import to US.
Naturally, but that only works if there is demand. The parent seemed to be suggesting that the US government subsidizes US farmers to grow corn due to the absence of market demand.
> Curious what price level you would say is unprofitable to grow corn?
I would say the breakeven point is somewhere around $4.50/bu. for my business. I have most of my corn crop sold at $5 this year, so I'm comfortable with those margins. Wheat is the crop that is going to be a money loser for the foreseeable future.
Because much of corn is turned into HFCS, which is so cheap it's added to everything, which is causing a huge spectrum of preventable diseases, such as metabolic dysfunction, which in turn is partly the cause of bankrupting national healthcare programs?
There's a great episode of The West Wing about the Iowa caucuses and the ethanol mandate.
As you would expect, marketing corn is more challenging now, after the boom, but there is still opportunity for money to be made. The thing about these crops is that the market price can swing by fairly large amounts in the matter of days, so the fact that a losing venture today can become a huge profit opportunity next week keeps people interested.
There is no lack of people keen to buy land and equipment if someone really wants out of the business, but we're not that bad off yet.
But the reality is that grain growing operates on ever-thinner margins. It now makes sense to skim grain from the best lands, insolation and precipitation-wise, and leave the rest to grasses, shrubs and marshes. What do people do in depressed regions in the absense of productivity, especially in the country, is another story.
Source from 2015: https://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/28/puffs-flakes-and-dollars-why...
Which means that the marketing/advertising spends have increased in a disproportional manner. What a world we are living in.
But, here this article says we're growing an endless bounty of corn.
There are some religious groups that calculate if they can get each of their members to have 8 children, they will become the majority of the population in like 2 generations. Fortunately even the best groups only manage like 3 or 4 per couple on average. But that only pushes it out a few more generations. And the groups that are the best at keeping their members from leaving, and the members that are the most loyal, will naturally be selected for.
In any case technological progress has slowed way down in the past century. It would be foolish to bet on it saving us.
And I do not know what your talking about regarding tech progress. Are you kidding?
For example, I'd define carrying capacity as to include consumer preferences in how much they want to have babies.
And if you include consumer preferences, well that changes the equation a whole lot. It means that you aren't necessarily going to get in a position where the stopping point is literally people starving to death.
All you have to do is have the environment cause 2 people to only want to have 2 babies. And there are a whole lot of reasons as to why 2 people might only want to have 2 babies, other than being forced to under the threat of literal starvation.
Those 2 people will be quickly replaced by the couple that wants to have 3 babies. Unless you pass and strongly enforce laws limiting reproduction, which our culture seems unwilling to do, you will get overpopulation.
Nature has a lot of population control mechanisms other than starvation. Like disease and predators. But humans have mostly eliminated those.
The only real exception is computers, information processing technology. One exception doesn't disprove a trend. And even those have begun to slow down now that we are approaching the physical and economic limits.
I strongly recommend The Rise and Fall of American Growth: The U.S. Standard of Living since the Civil War which pounds this point home with example after example of just how much the world changed during the second industrial revolution.
Who are these groups? Do you refer to the "Quiverfull" movement?
The demographics of these groups have real consequences. The Amish have witnessed a 50-fold increase in population in the last 90 years (from 5,000 to 250,000). Haredi comprised only 5% of the Jewish population in Israel as recently as 1990, but they're now at 10% of the total Jewish population and a whopping 29% of the the Jewish population under 20 years of age.
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I wrote something about this, if you're interested: http://www.thinkfundamental.org/the-people-who-believe-in-ev...
Paul Ehrlich, The Population Bomb, 1968
His first sentence appears to be correct - just not in the direction he meant.
He's still making similar doom-laden predictions, and still getting paid lots of money for them.
http://www.worldhunger.org/2015-world-hunger-and-poverty-fac...
From your link: "The world produces enough food to feed everyone."
Further: "For the world as a whole, per capita food availability has risen from about 2220 kcal/person/day in the early 1960s to 2790 kcal/person/day in 2006-08, while developing countries even recorded a leap from 1850 kcal/person/day to over 2640 kcal/person/day."
But Ehrlich wasn't talking about any of that. He was specifically saying there was no way we could produce enough food to feed the population of the world in the 1970s, and we'd have to drastically curtail population to survive.
"The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's the world will undergo famines—hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate, although many lives could be saved through dramatic programs to "stretch" the carrying capacity of the earth by increasing food production. But these programs will only provide a stay of execution unless they are accompanied by determined and successful efforts at population control. Population control is the conscious regulation of the numbers of human beings to meet the needs, not just of individual families, but of society as a whole."
None of that is the problem that causes famine.
We don't want to feed people who aren't paying; or people in power don't see it as useful.
It's not a practical problem it's all political, surely?
>"Famine is caused by poor [food] distribution, not poor production."<
The thread was specifically about food surplus, the GP & parent comments both specify it.
There's no reason to think either had the definition you use in mind. Surely that's "allocation"; I don't find your definition apparent -- unqualified "distribution" primarily in economics sources (I checked Economist, Investopedia, couple of other s) refers to "income distribution".
Given how blunt and lacking in nuance you found my post it's interesting you deliberately miscast "politics" as limited in scope to the actions of rich capitalists.
Saying "it's political" means it's down to motive and not ability. We can distribute food to everyone, people at some level "choose" not to. Do you disagree?
Perhaps some day people will ask the same question about Al Gore?
These predictions of doom (Thomas Malthus, Club of Rome, Global Warming, Y2K) all have the 'problem' of being self-defeating: It's unclear to what degree they were wrong only because societies reacted to them. China's One-Child policy, or family planning as a major component of developmental aid, for example, may have been consequences of the prophecies of overpopulation.
The new fear seems to be that all this food is actually becoming less nutritious due to increased CO2[0]. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in coming years.
[0]http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrien...
On the other hand, we and future generations will surely be working to reduce the CO2 levels.
For those complaining about subsisides: any country worth its salt needs to make sure farmers and heavy industry don't go caput. People need to eat and someone needs to make tanks and bullets during tough times.
My understanding is that artificially high grain prices are maintained so that factory farms don't completely run the family farms out of business. Is this correct?
If that is correct, and you are okay with artificially leveling the playing field, wouldn't it then make sense to find ways to actually put the product to use?
It's not a good idea to artificially inflate prices. The article mentioned the food riots in third world a decade ago. There are real consequences to this sort of crony capitalism, and in this case very poor people actually can starve when the prices go up.
Not to mention that growing crops is incredibly energy intensive, so it turns out that ethanol really isn't good for the environment. In my opinion, terrible policy all around.
Edit: made my comment a little less confrontational :)
http://www.heritage.org/agriculture/report/how-farm-subsidie...
Or perhaps I don't understand how CO2 harms the environment well.
CH4 + H2O → CO + 3H2
CO + H2O → CO2 + H2
3H2 + N2 → 2NH3
Maybe if we were all aware of this, we'd be setting up clean hydrogen to be converted into ammonia instead of just burning it in hydrogen cars.
That's a rather subtle distinction ;)
I mean, natural gas is just a natural cracking product of petroleum, which gets captured under impermeable geological formations.
Also, gasoline (C8H18) has a carbon to hydrogen ratio of approximately 0.44, compared to 0.25 for natural gas (CH4) (and natural gas has a higher specific energy), so from a carbon emissions perspective is still superior.
Additionally, natural gas in not "just a natural cracking product of petroleum." There are other significant geological sources of natural gas, and it is produced through decay of just about any organic matter.
[1] http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2001/08/ethanol-corn-faulted...
Edit: the land would be planted to wheat if not planted to corn. Wheat uses approximately 80% of the N as corn. The land wouldn't sit idle.
I'd be for it if people were talking about it as an economic effort, because that's where it can shine.
They're kind of like a facts... or is it mobile link hate?
The story leads with climate changes, but other reasons include corn varieties that have shorter growing seasons. According to the query tool (https://quickstats.nass.usda.gov), corn acreage in ND has gone from 1.0M acres in 2000 to 3.7M this year.
If you follow dietary trends you would know why.
I also note that high grain prices led to the Arab Spring which led Arab monarchies to need money to pay to keep their supporters happy...
(A note to clean hydrogen advocates: this is a much better market for hydrogen than burning it or converting to synthetic methane as it costs money to convert natural gas to hydrogen. Displace all that natural gas used for ammonia and nitrate fertilizer production before moving to burning it.)
Sarcasm aside, a lot of starvation could be counteracted with better distribution of excess corn at a lower price so I don't see a real problem. North American farms might be hit but the actual amount of labour needed at a massive corn-producing farm is shrinking every year due to technology (although there is also a agricultural labour shortage).
But then again, we shouldnt steal food from livestock to just feed humans.
I apologize for my sarcasm, I couldnt help it
This is also why cash crops can cause food shortages.
I assume it comes from periods of high wheat prices, since it also heavily uses rye? Sadly rye (which I have something of a personal taste for, mostly in whiskey though!) is also being impacted by the economy's preference for corn; global production numbers for rye have been falling steadily particularly in the former Soviet countries. I have had difficulty sourcing rye flour that's not eye-wateringly expensive.
You are perhaps already familiar, but in Mesoamerica where corn originated, it is generally processed into flour only after alkaline processing. The resulting flour, typically sold as "masa" in the US, is distinct from simple ground corn (cornmeal or corn flour in the US). The difference is quite striking, both culinarily and nutritionally.
It still doesn't form the gluten that wheat dough, does, so I haven't had good luck making European-style breads with it (though I'd love to, because I live with someone who has a wheat allergy).
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20100528144706/http://www.isthes...
There's enough food to be able to feed everyone, but people still die of starvation, because it's not well distributed.
The other question links to http://dopeoplestilldieofstarvation.com/