App will self destruct in 5 months:How Counterpath have screwed over Mac users | Hacker News Reader

App will self destruct in 5 months:How Counterpath have screwed over Mac users

hackernoon.com

39 pointskiyanwang45 comments

Just to recap, the allegation appears to be that Counterpath "screwed" Mac users by not upgrading old versions of their software to work with a brand new Apple operating system.

They do offer a new version of their app that works with the new operating system, and they do offer upgrade pricing. And old versions continue to work with operating systems that existed when those versions were developed.

Sorry, but complaining bitterly online about this just reeks of entitlement. It costs time and therefore money to support a new OS version. (Besides which, the new Bria apparently has other improvements.)

I looked, just because this person seemed so outraged, and the cost of the upgrade is $35 [1]. It appears Bria 4 launched 3.5 years ago [2]; if Bria 5 lasts as long you're talking about less than $1 a month. That seems eminently reasonable!

(Maybe this is a generational thing? When I started using computers, it was not unusual to spend $100 on a software upgrade.)

[1] https://secure.counterpath.com/Store/CounterPath/ProductInfo...

[2] http://www.counterpath.com/counterpath-launches-bria-4-softp...

> Maybe this is a generational thing?

A factor of mobile and Mac app stores, where people have gotten used to buying an app for $1.99 with free upgrades for life perhaps?

Charging money for a "compatibility with latest OS" upgrade is entirely reasonable - it requires new work and testing from the developer. Not backporting compatibility to 3-year-old versions is equally reasonable.

It's still more generous than subscription models, as you keep the option of not upgrading any of your software (including OS) if you wish.

You have your priorities backwards: OS compatibility updates should be free, a smattering of new features is a reasonable reason for a paid upgrade. Otherwise you (the dev) are pretty much forcing people to upgrade.

As a Mac developer, I can tell you that supporting new OS versions is often a lot more work than adding new features.

I think the article's author was specifically annoyed about recent purchases of v4 only to have it not work on the newest OS a few months later.

If they have a grace period for free upgrades (say, a few months before v5 was announced), then I'm good with that.

If the article isn't just talking about recent purchases of v4, then I completely agree with you. Software isn't cheap.

Bria 5 appears to have been released in June.[0] It supports MacOS High Sierra, released three months later.

Bria 4, released in May 2014[1], will not. It presumably runs on Mavericks (2013), Yosemite (2014), El Capitan (2015), and Sierra (2016), and possibly older releases, but not High Sierra.

The question is whether that's reasonable or not.

I don't know. I can understand being frustrated, for sure. That's also a pretty long lifecycle, with a clear upgrade path.

If you choose to update to High Sierra, knowing it breaks v4... maybe stay with Sierra?

I don't feel strongly about it, though.

[0] http://www.counterpath.com/counterpath-announces-release-of-... [1] http://www.counterpath.com/counterpath-launches-bria-4-softp...

Again, the only time I think it's unfair is for people who bought v4 in May, for example.

I would hope that, for a period after it was known that v4 would not support High Sierra, they were given either a refund or a free upgrade to v5.

Something along the lines of "1 year of free upgrades, then upgrade pricing" is a good idea even without considering OS compatibility.

It keeps customers who bought just before a new release happy, and removes anxiety about whether you should wait until next release to buy.

The point the guy made, which I think is valid, is they were selling Bria 4 until very recently - it would seem to be to be a Good Thing To Do to offer a free upgrade to those who purchased Bria 4 in 2017.

The problem is more Bria 4 was still being sold until recently. If I bought software 4 years ago, a new version was released >1 year ago and it's the only one that will be updated for MY_OS+1 then I'll suck it up and buy the upgrade.

If I bought software 4 years ago, was still being sold until 7 months ago when the new version was released, and it ISN'T being updated for MY_OS+1 then I will bitch and complain - you were still selling the product, and even if you decide I am not eligible for an update based on when I purchased it's still screwing over customers that bought your product recently when they still should assume support is available.

Are you drawing a strong distinction between a new version released more than a year ago, and a new version released seven months ago? That seems to be the key difference in the two scenarios you describe.

If seven months is too short, but one year is fine, when exactly between those two is "just right," and why?

I personally consider 1 year to be the minimum amount of support I should get out of a product I purchase before I either A) have to purchase a new version or B) have to renew a S&M agreement. If you aren't even going to guarantee a product I purchase will be supported for AT LEAST a year why do you deserve my money?

I believe the v4 product is still supported. Nobody is forced to buy v5, v4 continues to operate as promised and as sold.

The OP wants to run v4 on a new operating system that wasn't available when they bought v4. They're upset that isn't supported.

Don't upgrade your os for a year the product was sold to you with compatibility for a particular os version. Doesn't matter if you buy the app 1 day before the os gets a new version or 1 year.

Software? I don't care so much. You want new stuff, buy it. I've had to explain to clients that the internet is a living ecosystem of standards and protocols, and when old, insecure protocols die off (often because they're insecure) and are banned (say in newer iOS versions), you have to upgrade from your shitty Windows 2003 server running Exchange 2003 because that's why your iPhones won't connect anymore. I had to break it down because most big whig types don't understand that even though "I haven't changed anything" doesn't mean it can't break when the other products across the internet DO change.

Now DRIVERS? I've gone out of my way to NEVER buy a Creative Labs product anymore (not that it matters these days) because they refused to update their drivers for my expensive soundcards for operating systems that came out RIGHT AFTER the card release date. Like, "Vista only" when Windows 7 is out. You guys can go to hell if you think I'm gonna buy another product with a usable lifetime of 6-months.

Better Touch Tool is introducing a great pay model where you get 2 years of updates from the purchase date.

https://www.boastr.net/bettertouchtool-paid-upgrades/

I think what matters here is how much effort it would have taken to backport the fix to the older version of their software.

If it's trivial then they should be expected to.

I really don't see this as screwing over Mac users. The guy has a v4 (released Apr 2014). The new v5 (released Jun 2017) has been around for some months. This really is not 'screwing' over Mac users. You've made a choice to upgrade to High Sierra which breaks numerous applications. You are using a 3 year old piece of software (although 4.7 came out Dec 2016).

Also to suggest that High Sierra is a simple maintenance update also dismisses the large number of apps that no longer work with Mac OS. This is a big big change and you need to decide if you should consider updating given your reliance on Bria 4.

I really do think the OP is blaming the wrong people here. Apple has a lot to answer for.

Yeah, I didn't really follow the "maintenance update" argument, either.

It didn't introduce many new features to the OS itself, but it changed quite a bit.

It doesn't matter when the software was released. If the generally accepted lifetime of this software product was say 3 years then every customer is (dare I say) entitled to software that continues to function for at least 3 years after they bought it.

If the company decided that developing the old version isn't worth it then giving them a free upgrade path seems acceptable but selling software that is obsolete a few months after someone buys it reflects poorly on our whole industry.

Obsolete? v4 still works on the operating system that was current when it was first released, as well as the next three operating systems. It works on the operating system that was Apple's latest and greatest one week ago, the operating system that's still installed on the majority of Mac, and will still be supported by Apple for years to come.[0]

My company insists that I shouldn't update to High Sierra because doing so breaks several well-known apps, including Microsoft Office (albeit v2011, I think?). So I haven't updated, and... everything is fine.

A demand for a free upgrade path suggests to me that all software ought to be sold as lifetime licenses with unlimited upgrades. I think that extreme would undermine our whole industry far more than a company insisting that only their latest product is supported on the latest operating system.

[0]Here's Apple release updates for Sierra, El Capitan, and Yosemite very recently: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222

I was bitten by Counterpath too. Another company with similar practices: Parallels. Forcing me to upgrade continuity, without offering valuable features. Has been going on for years now.

Did Parallels advertise that the product would work on the next version of macOS? If not, you got wait you paid for.

You can just as well turn it around: did they inform customers when they would stop supporting their application?

When the next version of macOS comes out and whether it will bring significant breaking changes is not within their control though.

Well they know a new one comes out every year so they would have to be willfully ignorant to not know that and that it have a chance of breaking behavior.

If they want to charge for new versions it would only be fair if they at sales time gave a time range for how long they were going to support current versions.

Some releases are much more substantial than others though. Apple may even deprecate functionality they depend on without a suitable replacement. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that the customer is given the choice to pay for the upgrade or not, rather than build in the insurance cost all the time.

I think the programmer is much better equipped to make a informed choice about this than the customer.

Why aren't people upset with Apple for breaking a new app with an OS update? Unless Bria is using, say, private API calls, why is the burden on them to update their app every time Apple releases an OS update, and not on Apple to ensure backwards compatibility, especially when there is very little difference to the end user between the two versions of the OS?

You can still run Windows XP programs in the latest incarnation of Windows, 15 years later.

Yeah parallels does this too. I feel mixed about it. Native Instruments and MOTU tend to make their software compatible for many years after you purchase them, which I appreciate. But it does take development time to make them compatible with new OS versions. Paying for a $40 upgrade every year seems excessive, but I'd prefer it to a monthly subscription model like Adobe and Microsoft have done.

Propellerheads is abandoning Reason 8 users. Apparently, whatever they did in version 8 is heavily tied to the Apple file system, and the forced upgrade in High Sierra will break their files.

So, I get a choice - keep Reason or upgrade to HS. I kinda feel screwed over by all parties.

Omnigroup have done something similar with Omnigraffle - you want it to work on iOS 11? You have to buy the next version of Omnigraffle.

I would upgrade if the new version had a feature that I requested about 3 years ago (a feature of the the desktop version) - but it doesn't so, I won't.

Omnigraffle 2 should still open in iOS11:

https://support.omnigroup.com/ios-11/

What is this, but the author ranting about a totally understandable move from this company?

Don't upgrade your OS, or upgrade the software.

The title is misleading: the app doesn't self-destruct, and Counterpath have NOT screwed over Mac users.

> And by their decision here, there are a lot of disgruntled Bria users who will not be contributing to their sales, revenue or profit again.

Good riddance to bad customers.

TL;DR: Can someone recommend a decent softphone app that runs on High Sierra?

Don't know about High Sierra issues but Linphone (http://www.linphone.org/) usually works very well. Jitsi Desktop (https://desktop.jitsi.org/) is a decent SIP softphone too but it's really ugly. Both are cross platform and open source, don't know about commercial software.

I wouldn't recommend native SIP softphones anymore, it's a pain to configure and run securely. The best cross platform media stack is the WebRTC functionality in modern browsers, and it usually just works perfectly with a VoIP provider or PBX that has a WebRTC frontend.

I've heard Bria 5 is pretty good.

I was about to give them money too, so glad I saw this.

Bria 4 was released in 2014. Bria 5 has been around since Jun 2017. I'd definitely give the company a break here.

I think the larger issue is that some people bought v4 just in time to not be able to use it.

When v4 didn't work with the betas of HS, I would expect them to warn new buyers that they won't be fixing v4. I would also expect them to have a grace period where recent buyers of v4 get a free upgrade to 5.

I don't know the details of whether or not they did any of the above. Just pointing out a (more) fair approach.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to be upset at Apple for breaking a recent app when they update their OS?

Which recent app would that be? My understanding is that v4 was originally released in 2014.

Either way: no. Your product supports a platform, you update it to be compatible. If you don't want to support the new version, that's your choice.

CounterPath stopped selling Bria 4 in June this year, since then its been Bria 5 which IS supported on High Sierra. They also have an upgrade program for Bria 4 depending on when you purchased, with free upgrades if you purchased within 60 days of the Bria 5 launch, and 30% off for anything prior.

https://support.counterpath.com/knowledge-base/article/%E2%8...

I did my homework, yes I missed out on the free upgrade, but 30% discount ain't bad and with the frequency that they upgrade their softphone versions I think its way more fair than Parallels or other software where you pay $50 every year with very few updates in between.

Yep, so unless somebody really thinks it should be greater than 60 days, I think this is a pretty fair setup.

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