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Comment by dsacco | Hacker News Reader

Something I’m curious about regarding Mr. Money Mustache - is he actually retired, in the sense that he doesn’t do anything to bring in income (except through passive index investing)?

It seems like he has a brand that is pretty lucrative, so it’s unclear to me if he:

1. has enough money to be functionally retired at his current lifestyle, but chooses to continue his brand anyway,

2. has enough money to be functionally retired, but not at his current lifestyle, and so chooses to continue his brand,

3. cannot functionally retire and simply “transitioned” from professional software development to professional blogging.

I follow the logic of his blog series (reduce spending dramatically, increase savings dramatically, invest optimally), but I can’t tell how much of it contributes to his current lifestyle.

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One of the things that made me stop reading him was when it became clear his "I'm totally retired and you can be too!" thing was BS. At the time he had like 3 part-time jobs (the blog, landlord, handyman, IIRC), with his savings being large enough that he could make a stupid "hey, you should stop paying so much for health insurance you idiots! Turns our if you have a lot of money in the bank and the skills to land a job with family coverage in a matter of months if you need to, you only need catastrophic coverage! I don't know why people say buying your own health insurance is expensive, it's not!" post, but not enough to totally retire on it (he seemed to be letting his investments grow by spending mostly his part-time job money, at the time, rather than investment returns)

Exactly. Seems totally stupid. Like why is it better to have 3 jobs ( blog, handyman, landlord ) than one normal job ? to me retired is a person who specifically lives strictly off the money they have. I mean sure, if you prefer to work as a handyman or run a successful blog, by all means do that, but calling yourself retired seems inaccurate. I am retired but I have 3 jobs. ooook.

Ha. The MMM community calls people espousing this sort of view "the retirement police". I have no idea what this complaint intends to accomplish beyond adherence to some kind of radical linguistic prescriptivism.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-...

And that's another thing that I don't particularly like about MMM: the incessant shouting down and name calling of anything and anybody that dares to question him and his statements.

His community takes the cue and runs with, too. Any hint of, "wait... this post is useful for saving only if I already have a ton of money and/or already don't have a job and therefore have little to no time pressure in my life. Rich people pay less for stuff, retired people have lots of free time, that's well known and not insightful. Some of the cutting-spending stuff here is good, but this particular thing is incredibly unhelpful." is dealt with harshly, no matter how justified.

You can't claim to be financially independent and come back two years later with this gem:

"The secret is that my wife is no longer really retired, and in fact she started a business that is now big enough to FUND OUR ENTIRE FAMILY'S LIFESTYLE."

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/03/06/etsy-shop/

If not outright dishonest, it certainly gives the off appearance that you can't put any weight in the numbers he is throwing out.

I guess I'm one of those "retirement police" who hates seeing a huckster give bad advice while eschewing talking about the real increase in realized risk you take by retiring early and not considering it in your plan. As one of the previous comments stated: your budget is not static, investment returns are not guaranteed, life events and medical situations change drastically.

So when I see, "I made it so can you", I want to respond, "Come back to me when you are 90 and on your death bed and talk with me again." I've seen the cancer treatment bills and what they do to someone with 10x your "financial independent" worth.

All of these concerns are real. You'll be reassured to learn that health costs are probably the fourth-most discussed topic in the MMM community, after safe withdrawal rates, asset allocation, and game plans during the next big market crash.

MMM's blog posts are very basic - you won't safely retire early if all you do is read them. Fortunately, people are responsible and put slightly more effort into planning their entire lives than uncritically following some blog post on the internet. For example, many people are planning on using a 3.25% withdrawal rate rather than 4%, and have much more in bonds than the 100%-equities-or-bust message on the blog.

It's not dishonest, you're missing the point of that sentence.

The Etsy shop could fund the family's lifestyle. The family is already funded by investment returns. They could shut the shop down and continue living just as they do. MMM is just using "fund our family's lifestyle" to give an idea of how much the shop is pulling in (about $30k/year).

MMM gave a talk last year[0] where one of his key points was "Work is better when you don't need the money."

That's what he's doing when he says he is "retired" and yet works odd jobs to make money, or his wife sells things on Etsy for fun. I do think there's something behind the idea that it's more fun to do money-generating activities when you don't need the money they generate.

Also, his talk is pretty funny (and a good intro to his way of thinking for those who haven't read any of his stuff). Worth a watch.

[0]: https://vimeo.com/183016901

ok. but if you don't need the money, why not do a million other activities that don't bring in money?

Why does it matter whether doing what you want to do brings in money?

it doesn't but then there is no advantage to whatever MMM is doing, vs just having a well paid regular job that you like.

to me the point of retirement is to be able to wake up at 9 and go for a walk or travel or reading a book. Not going to 3 different part time jobs.

Of course there is a difference. MMM doesn't have to do what he's doing in order to pay for a place to live and food to eat. He doesn't have to stress out about losing his income stream. He basically has hobbies for which he gets paid.

In your retirement, you'd choose to walk and travel and read books. Those are good hobbies! What if eventually you want to get into something like woodworking (a very popular hobby)? What if - gasp - you sell some of your woodworking creations for money? Does that invalidate your retirement?

If you sell those wooodworking creations for money and you keep the money - yes, absolutely. Why don't you give those woodworking creations away for free if you don't need the money? or why don't you donate the money you earn from them to charity - if you don't do those things, you admit you need that money for something that you can't afford otherwise. In that case, why not just work a job? I mean if you love woodworking and do it for money, you just have a job that you love, which is fantastic. but it's a job.

In the woodworking example, you may only have room for so many chairs around the house. And, if you don't really need the money, you make what you want when you feel like it. That's a lot different from the typical job.

Needing money isn't binary in any case. I may or may not need more money. But maybe I'll be glad I had it some day. Of, perhaps unlike MMM, maybe I'll buy something or take a trip someplace with the extra money that I wouldn't have otherwise done.

needing money is pretty binary, in my opinion. If I can do all the things I like without working at all, then I have enough to retire. If I occasionally need more money to do some of the things I like and I need to work to get it - I don't have enough to retire.

I'd probably like to hop on a NetJets when I travel but I'm not planning to hold off on retiring until that's a reasonable option. Pretty much everything is about tradeoffs.

Of course you can do that too. Leisure is awesome. I think I'd do a lot of that myself.

I don't think I'd give up programming though. I really enjoy it. Maybe after tinkering on a bunch of my own projects that nobody ever sees, I would get bored of that (pretty sure I would anyway). I'd probably get an itch to do something that other people can use too. And then it's likely there'd be money involved.

But also, "going to 3 different part time jobs" isn't really a good way to look at it. If someone asks you "hey, do you want to help me build a deck?" , there's a world of difference between saying yes because you need the money vs. saying yes because you enjoy the work and want something to do.

I would not underestimate being in the position to walk away. Even if you never act on it, that feeling of control is worth something. (see also: "fuck you money").

I think his definition of "retired" is pretty simple:

his family could cover all of their living expenses from investment income alone.

When you think about it, this is pretty much what we mean by "normal" retirement as well. If a 70 year old retiree does some maintenance on his rental property we don't accuse him of lying about being retired.

Your point about medical bills doesn't really hold water. I'm sure plenty of unlucky people who retired at a more conventional age end up having to come out of retirement because of an unforeseen tragedy.

Unless you want to change the definition of "retired" to: "having sufficient investment income to cover any possible expense that you or your family could possibly incur from now until your death, without ever doing a single hour of paid work"

I don't agree with MMM all the time but accusing him of not being retired does seem like a pointless exercise in semantics.

if you are doing 3 different jobs ( 4 counting the etsy shop ), you are working at 3 jobs. That's not retirement. Sure, he claims his investment income covers his expenses, I get that. But, no matter how you look at it, he is working. He is not retired. If a 70 year old is spending time doing maintenance on rental properties, that 70 year old is working part time

One of the key insights about his situation, I think, is that you can live on his under-30K budget and not feel super poor, if you don't have regular 9-5 job with a fixed location, if you don't need to worry much about good schools (can homeschool—these two things combine to mean you can choose inexpensive housing with fewer other trade-offs, which makes it easier to have a paid-off house), and if you already have a lot of money and in-demand skills so you can reasonably have much lower insurance spending generally, and especially health insurance. The overwhelming bulk of his budget savings comes from already having lots of money and from having plenty of time to DIY stuff others might pay for. The rest is useful but relatively marginal.

His blog's good for reinforcing that you can spend less money when you already have money, so it's heartening in that it tells you your target income for retirement can be much lower than the income you need pre-retirement. It's not especially helpful for getting there.

He had more than enough money in the bank to do nothing given his expenditures. Turns out he likes making money on his own time.

Here's a New Yorker article about him: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/mr-money-musta...

I believe he has some rental income from properties he owns and he claims to only spend $25K or so per year, so the answer is probably closest to 1. His brand/blog does seem to be quite lucrative though. At this point, it would probably make more sense to limit the effort rather than shut anything down.

There should probably be another word for it? I'm financially secure and will be for the rest of my life. But, I still generate an income, mostly by ownership but I still do physical labor. I do quite a bit of my own labor, as well. I can easily pay someone to do it for me, but I like it.

I just helped harvest the blueberries. Next, I'll be filling my own freezers during hunting season and I'll be guiding others to help fill their freezers. I harvest and process the animals on the neighboring farm, more so if I'm to be purchasing the results. I cut down trees for my own firewood, but I've helped the crew that harvests for commercial reasons. I own a share in a few franchises, and it is not unknown for me to come help on snowy days or even just to help clean up at close. I not only plow my own snow, but I plow it for other people, I'll even shovel for them.

Some of this makes me money, some of it costs me money.

I'm not sure retired is the right word? I don't have to do it, but I like keeping busy. Surely, there could be a better word than 'retired?'

Financially independent is the phrase I'd use. Enough money so you don't 'have' to work to survive

That works. Anything I make, at least for money, gets donated or given away, pretty much. Some of the things I do result in my being given things like lasagna and fresh baked bread as payment. I eat that. I'd be crazy not to.

I don't know. "Financially independent" strikes me more along the lines of being able to walk out the door tomorrow and only doing a job because I want to. Not because I need the money.

I think "retired" is OK. A lot (most?) retired people who are healthy do something whether it's just some DIY around the house or volunteering. Of course, these days there are opportunities to pick up some dollars through various gig economy things though I would definitely have to need the money.

The lines are more blurred than they used to be though. I've known quite a few consultants who basically wound things down over time--not actively pursuing work as much but happy to spend some time and cash some checks with existing clients.

Yeah, right after I sold, I tried the not being busy thing. It was less than ideal and it only took a few years before I was bored beyond belief. I did the volunteering thing but that was, for many reasons, less than ideal. So, now I keep myself occupied in unofficial capacities, both at home and in my small community.

I'm not sure how people do it. They retire and seem to do a whole lot of nothing. They may travel a little, maybe putter in the garden, but they mostly seem to watch television and hang out with other old people.

I retired fairly young. That may account for some of the difference. I try to have hobbies that keep me both physically and mentally occupied. Being unoccupied doesn't work well for me.

He 'retired' (as in, didn't have a job but spend most of his time DIY'ing so he didn't need money - not quite my definition of 'retire' but let's not beat that dead horse any more) years before the blog, but now brings in 6 figures (maybe more by now) from ads & other website income. It's a bit a 'in a gold rush, those selling shovels do best' thing.

I don't think you know what retired actual means here. It doesn't mean never working again, it more refers to being financially independent.

If he wanted to stop all those projects and never do anything again, he could. But that would probably be boring, so he pursues things that interest him, some of which net him income.

He's gone over his family's spending before, if you want to read more - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa...

Beautiful. Since we get to make up our own definition of what retired means, I guess I am also retired.

re·tired rəˈtī(ə)rd/Submit adjective 1. having left one's job and ceased to work.

Well rather than attempting sarcasm, why don't you tell us what you think retired means? Presumably you're banned from ever doing any task that might even possibly net you any money?

if you are doing tasks that net you money, you are working, you are not retired. Right?

definition of retired:

Dictionary

retired re·tired rəˈtī(ə)rd/Submit adjective 1. having left one's job and ceased to work. "a retired teacher" synonyms: former, ex-, past, in retirement, superannuated More 2. archaic (of a place) quiet and secluded; not seen or frequented by many people. "this retired corner of the world"

If you play poker for fun and win some money while you're at it, are you working?

What about slots?

What about buying antiques, and you wind up with something worth a bunch of money?

I think calling it work requires the intent of earning money. And I agree that MMM is no longer retired.

Look, claiming you are retired while regularly doing 3 jobs for money is disingenuous in my opinion.

BINGO! And he bends the truth with his budget, go look at http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/05/19/2016-spending/

Claims they live off of 'About $22,000' after saying that his 30k$ home addition does not count in his budget because it's not a necessary expense... "Finish materials for my house and the homes of some friends/family. Does not include the $30k detached Studio I built."

That's extremely deceptive.

I think a better term for what he preaches is financial independence.

You can substitute "financially independent" if it makes you feel better. Many people continue doing things that generate income even though they don't need the money. It's worth noting the difference between someone working because it's what they enjoy doing vs. someone who is compelled to work by financial necessity.

if they have enough money that they don't actually need to work and yet do work that generates income why don't they take that income and fully donate it to charity? if MMM doesn't do that, it means he needs that income - not different from just having a job

That's a ridiculous standard. How much money do you make? Do you live on the bare minimum necessary for survival and donate the rest? If you do, then kudos. If you're like most other people, you probably indulge in a luxury once in a while that you wouldn't otherwise buy if you couldn't afford it. That's not unreasonable. If your income unexpectedly declined, I'm sure there's a number of expenses that aren't strictly necessary and could be given up without too much worry.

FWIW, MMM did blog about giving away $100,000 of his blog windfall last year (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/26/notes-on-giving-a...) and plans to give away more.

that's not really the point. I have expenses that aren't strictly necessary that I could give up - but those are things I like. So, the question is, why should you claim to be retired and then work part time to afford extra things you like, vs just have a job and afford those things.

Yes. Also, I would add that MMM and his wife certainly did retire -- in the sense of quitting their conventional jobs and intending to live off the income, having no need to work. It just happened that in retirement they found themselves wanting to do some things, and those things have produced an income of their own. I'm pretty sure, the moment MMM isn't having fun with what he's currently doing, he'll stop and do something else, which choice will not be driven by how much income it produces. How is that not retirement? (The idea that in retirement you sit around all day and do essentially nothing is, I suppose, true for some people, but surely not a healthy or happy way of living your life.)

It depends on how you define retired. Most people define being retired as living a life without obligations required to bring home the bacon and by that definition MMM is now retired (at his expense levels), but when he made the claim at first I felt he was overselling it. But the blog ads bring in much more than he is spending + passive investments ditto so if he would stop working / bringing in other money besides those streams he would be able to do this forever.

>when he made the claim at first I felt he was overselling it.

In what way? His passive investments were bringing in far more than his spending, so in what sense was he "overselling" it?

He had to go on the 'carpentour' to not eat into his savings.

Retirement means not having to work, period.

Where did you get that from? There wasn't any market crash when he stopped working, therefore his passive income would have been far in excess of his spending.

Where did you hear he had to work?

He has said that he has enough money as is, but continues to do what he does because it's more interesting than sitting on his thumbs all day.

Being retired or financially independent is really about being able to do what you like when you want to and not having to worry about money. Choosing not to work at all simply to conform to what other people's expectations about what you're "allowed" to do if you call yourself retired is kind of silly.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-...

He's functionally retired. He was living off income from his investments before he started the blog.

The blog happened to take off and bring a windfall of money that allowed him to make some purchases he might not have otherwise made, but he posts his budget every year and it's pretty clear he could easily live off only his investment income, and does for the most part. He also gave a six-figure amount away to charity last year.

I think the answer is 1 - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/05/19/2016-spending/

That said, some of the blog money is going into non-index investments like mmm hq - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/08/02/introducing-the-mm...

The answers to your question is here:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/05/19/2016-spending/

tl;dr - He is still very frugal, unless you count his business expenses. He definitely works on his business and brings in income, but he gives much of it away.

He's not frugal, he is very creative with his accounting. In the post you linked he deducts his medical expenses and food expenses.

Also if you look at the post you linked "Does not include the $30k detached Studio I built." 30k$ is more than a LOT of people gross annually in the U.S. and he claims it doesn't count as an expense which conveniently keeps his budget 30k$ smaller than it in fact was.

According to the U.S Census Bureau "The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964; for non-Hispanic Whites, it was $31,313; for Blacks, it was $18,406; for Asians, it was $30,292; and for Hispanics, it was $15,674." which are all less than his 30k$ "hey guys it doesn't count I added a whole new room to my house" creative budget.

My take was that he followed his own advice and did successfully "retire" without any of the blogging or brand income. Then his blog took off, and he started pulling a lot more money and getting quite famous.

He definitely has enough money to retire forever, but chooses to keep running the blog and doing interviews because he enjoys it, and it's something to do.

(1). He was functionally retired before his brand started bringing in $400k/year.

All I know is he makes good money off the blog, and his affiliate link disclosures (e.g. Betterment) are often poor (e.g. at the end of an article, which doesn't conform to federal guidelines). It also, of course, calls his judgment into question, though naturally he swears up and down he loves the companies that sponsor him.

According to this New Yorker article, the blog makes hundreds of thousands a year. So now his 'early retirement' is starting to look like 'smart career change for getting much richer.'

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/mr-money-musta...

I read that his blog fetches half-a-million a year in revenue and he's barely monetized it. He brags about turning down offers from large institutions for various reasons. I'm sure these offers were quite lucrative.

I suspect the unrealized worth of his brand is in the $50-100mm range. He has a huge cult following (his words) among some of the highest earning members of society.

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