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Comment by Cleisthenes | Hacker News Reader

That was your lesson from this? Stick your head in the ground and pretend politics is pointless?

Ignorance of politics is a luxury afforded only to citizens of authoritarian regimes. You live in a democracy (assuming that discussion of Trump in politics means you live in the US). Politics is how society chooses to make and use government.

People pretending they are morally superior or lead better lives through ignorance never cease to amaze me.

This article talks about sensationalism in news. Sure, avoid it. Be skeptical of bold claims. But right now Trump and Republicans are talking about making gigantic changes to the nation's healthcare system. Regardless of where you sit on the fence, this absolutely matters.

Pay attention. Find less sensational news. Pay for good journalism and also look for balanced analysis.

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> You live in a democracy

> People pretending they are morally superior or lead better lives through ignorance never cease to amaze me.

First of all, we don't have a direct democracy. This concept that everyone has to be 100% engaged (or even 90, or 80, or whatever subjective figure in your head that qualifies good enough is, which is another issue, your concept of being engaged enough doesn't match another) need not apply. Just enough people have to be engaged, which historically speaking has happened.

Second of all, I don't think anyone is claiming a moral high ground here, and if they are you are correct to say shame on them.

Third of all, people who place the same onus of keeping up with whatever the hell is going on in the world as some moral duty never cease to amaze me because it is so easy to flip the script on you and say you don't know enough. There is an endless amount of information out there. "News" as a concept is not even a fraction as old as the concept of government and democracy. We face information overload. How can you blame people for just wanting to live their lives? What if I never signed up for this system? Most people care more about their issues locally (which is in line with human psychology, we weren't meant for these large social networks) but people who sit here and cast stones at people who aren't keeping up with what happens with the Mueller investigation, for example, (which something happens every 2.5 seconds) is what never ceases to amaze me.

> First of all, we don't have a direct democracy.

This isn't an argument against being informed, it's a pointless debate over semantics. You and anyone reasonable understood what GP meant, they meant democracy as a "national built on foundations of democratic values, such as freedom of press, freedom of speech (to varying extents), right to assemble, etc" in contrast to "authoritarian regime where those values are not enshrined in the government legislature or cultural values".

> There is an endless amount of information out there. "News" as a concept is not even a fraction as old as the concept of government and democracy. We face information overload

The concept of modern news may not have been a invented at the same time, yet it remains a fundamental core part of many democratic-leaning nation's values.

> How can you blame people for just wanting to live their lives? What if I never signed up for this system?

You're probably free to move to an authoritarian regime if you cared to. No one chose to be born into a government system, but to claim no responsibility in a system that you've benefited from since you were born is passing the buck.

> You're probably free to move to an authoritarian regime if you cared to. No one chose to be born into a government system, but to claim no responsibility in a system that you've benefited from since you were born is passing the buck.

Ah yes, the "if you don't like it, you can go back to where you came from" argument, in different clothing of course. This is just never a good rhetorical device. What a person did or did not benefit for is up for debate -- even North Korea provides basics -- but that's not what is being argued here. If I was born into an environment I had no say in building, and I find it incompatible with my way of life (imagine being a white boy from the south on a plantation and against slavery, then shoved into the Civil war), I am, by definition now oppressed -- I am forced to be subservient to a system I had no say in building. I brought this up not to argue it but as a counter example to the person who just says "I am fine just living my life"

>Ah yes, the "if you don't like it, you can go back to where you came from" argument, in different clothing of course.

I really don't think that is a fair analogy to what he was saying. He's saying if you grow up in a particular system you can't just ride it out and claim willful ignorance.

Go back to where you came from is different, that would be saying you chose to come here and therefore why are you trying to change it.

I don't necessarily agree with either argument, but they are definitely significantly different ones.

> What a person did or did not benefit for is up for debate -- even North Korea provides basics --

What

> This isn't an argument against being informed, it's a pointless debate over semantics.

Agreed.

The post you're replying to is less a thoughtful disagreement and more mental-gymnastics made literal.

We live in a democracy is a completely and fully accurate statement. Being pedantic that it's not a direct democracy may be accurate but doesn't invalidate the statement. A representational democracy or a republic is a democracy.

Additionally, many states have several elements of direct democracy. For instance many states have direct referendums.

As to your second point, I will concede the first person did not claim to be morally superior, but they are included in the second category included in the sentence. The individual, like many others I've met, spoken with, and who broadcast their opinions loudly, claim to lead better lives by ignoring politics nearly completely.

Voting is a fundamental responsibility of living in a democracy. Like paying taxes, serving jury duty, etc. Yes, I consider it a moral imperative to fulfill your obligations as a citizen. And part of your obligations of voting should be for the voter to try to be informed on the matters they are voting on.

I don't need people to be policy wonks, but I do need people to know what the person they are voting for plans to do. Instead we have a situation where a sizable percentage of people are confused about whether Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/upshot/one-third-dont-kno...)

How can I blame people for just wanting to live their lives? Easy. When they either vote for something abhorrent without knowing or don't show up to vote against something abhorrent because they're just wanting to live their lives. Especially when either group then complains about the something abhorrent.

My problem isn't with people who are ignorant, it's with those who put a high value on ignorance. Yes, we have limited time. Yes, we have limited attention. But reading a few headlines and articles once a week isn't going break anyone. Oh, and if someone has new bit of information about something you don't know and wants to talk about, don't claim they should avoid reading news.

Since this is hackernews, I think we can move the discussion from politics to something like programming. I don't expect a programmer to know everything about all of the latest frameworks, but I do expect them to be familiar with current trends in programming and have spent at least a little time evaluating the impact of those trends and events to their work. Imagine hiring a full-stack developer who doesn't even know about React nor that it has some potentially troubling patent-litigation language in the license?

>But reading a few headlines and articles once a week isn't going break anyone.

Mightn't this be a worst of both worlds scenario? If you totally ignore politics and abstain then you have a neutral impact. If you only "read a few headlines" as you suggest, and base your actions off those then you're highly susceptible to fake news and easy manipulation (while having a false sense of satisfaction for "participating").

What follows is that, only those who steep themselves in the minutia of each issue should have strong opinions, which actually seems about right.

Also remember that the common pattern of journalism today is to lie in the headline and then correct the lie in the article itself.

Which means that if you only skim headlines, you're learning bullshit.

I'd argue that we're more an oligarchy than a democracy. Yea we technically allow for a democracy but the reality is that someone with good ideas and no money is going to lose vs someone with bad ideas but a lot of money.

Especially with our first past the post voting system and the two parties ignoring the plebs whenever they decide on a candidate, ala the DNC pushing Hilary over Bernie. Trump getting picked when the Republican establishment didny want was probably the most democratic part of the previous election, but it wouldn't have happened if he was not independently wealthy

> Most people care more about their issues locally (which is in line with human psychology, we weren't meant for these large social networks) but people who sit here and cast stones at people who aren't keeping up with what happens with the Mueller investigation, for example, (which something happens every 2.5 seconds)

The actual context here is someone talking about how they pay zero attention, while mocking people who talk about "the apocalypse" or anything, really. So clearly not people worrying about their local issues.

You can pay attention to politics, you can do politics without necessarily following obsessively every little happenstance of things. Once you know some politician is a racist crook, you don't need a reminder every day. You especially don't need a remind from people who will give the same amount of space to the president's crooked necktie or and to the healthcare reform. What you mostly need is coordination to fight his politics, which is not what the media give you.

The american media were bad before Trump, and they have remained bad as far as I can tell. They completely fail to disentangle the serious from the merely ridiculous.

> The american media ... bad

This is too easy an answer to serious problems. It is similar to saying 'all American developers are bad', because a lot of my software is buggy. It depends on the developer and on the news source. Some news sources are exceptional, though like all human endeavors they are always far from ideal. Some are far better than others; to lump in the National Enquirer with the New York Times is to "completely fail to disentangle the serious from the merely ridiculous."

>The american media were bad before Trump, and they have remained bad as far as I can tell. They completely fail to disentangle the serious from the merely ridiculous.

The issue here is, you paint too broad a brush saying this.

I don't want this to seem like I am aiming this at you necessarily, because I am more just piggy backing a comment to write about rather than aiming this at you so take the rest of the comment with that in mind.. but..

You can follow particular journalists that have a high reputation, and disregard ones that have a bad reputation without disavowing all journalists and the media in general.

Similarly, you can treat bias in journalism the same way you treat a review - you know what journalists see things particular ways and therefore view their slant on things as a bent on an already established world view. Some journalists are so unbiased that you can almost ignore this. Some journalists are so biased you can use them as the canary in the coal mine for how a segment of a population is likely to view the issue etc etc.

There are majority mediocre people in every profession, media is an industry that has picked up a huge proportion of hacks and automated articles in the past 10 years, instead of viewing it as an overall industry - look for the good ones and the interesting ones, not just "all media bad".

I don't think the OP's granularity preference of "monthly" for current-affairs consumption deserves such an strong rebuke. I have limited interest in the toxic modern ouroboros of the so-called "news cycle" and the hysterical yelping of politicians of any colour. I don't believe I have a civic obligation to follow the tedious, self-serving minutiae of political horse-trading. My time and energy are allocated to making things, and real-time news is a productivity-destroying distraction.

But I still like to be informed. A monthly summary of goings-on in the world, written specifically according to my general (but not immediate) interests, why, yes, that'd be something I'd pay for as well.

So this isn't "ignorance of politics": when the next election comes around, then I'll make my assessment based on what I've read, and play my part in choosing the next government.

In the meantime, I've got work to do.

99% of political news has no significant impact on my life (and actually focusing on it makes me less happy). You can significantly reduce the amount of news you get while still getting the few things that really matter. I've found personally there's about one news story every other week that I think is important to know

Though I pay attention to politics like you and unlike the OP I have become skeptical in journalism to truly inform anyone.

I've migrated to books primarily for my information and this was before Trump was a serious political contender.

I live in eastern-Europe and your bipartisan politics leak here too.

If I was an American, I would read politics even less since you already know who to vote for, you pretty much have 2 choices. It's a bit more complex here.

Pay for good journalism

Where? He that is without sin among them, let him cash the first check.

I’ve checked out too. The S/N ratio is way past what my filters can handle. I either need algorithmic filtering or noise attenuation.

The fact is we’re all part of an intersubjective reality. It’s impossible for me to determine what is fake news and anyone who claims they can is fooling themselves or has primary sources.

Off topic but have you read Homo Deus?

Yes

Great so have I! Intersubjective is what clued me in. The whole idea of Intersubjective reality cleared up a lot of misgivings I had about civilizations/societies.

Same here. It also makes people who are adamant about any position related to fake news (what it is, who is making it, whether it's good or bad, etc...) sound like a barking dog.

This is what I'm finding too. I'm suffering from what I suppose one could call "issue fatigue" (or perhaps "drama fatigue").

This characterization is not pejorative[0], it's just that inarguably real and serious events (hurricanes, earthquakes, and other disasters, whether natural or man-made) are presented with as much gravitas (or excitement) as merely scandalous (or, more likely, scandalized) news.

One gets so tired of perceiving this, one could be forgiven for throwing one's hands up in disgust and sheltering from the torrential wordpour.

[0] A favored phrase from, IIRC, the original K&R 'C' book.

Democracy is to power what pornography is to sex.

Do you really think that participating in scuttlebutt about the reality show of presidential politics has anything to do with governance?

The first step is to turn off the noise and take direct action to help the people around you.

You are 100% right on the money.

I am not morally superior to you, and I don't even know that such a thing exists because it makes no sense.

I do however have a heightened sense of empathy and awareness of the things going on around me, which means I'm not well suited to caring or paying too much attention to global or even national-level politics, because it would literally make me physically ill.

So I might be superior to you when it comes to caring about local politics, whereas you might be superior to me when it comes to caring about broader scope politics.

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