Aaron Hernandez Found to Have Severe C.T.E | Hacker News Reader

Aaron Hernandez Found to Have Severe C.T.E

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50 pointscoloneltcb61 comments

> C.T.E., or chronic traumatic encephalopathy, can be diagnosed only posthumously.

Just thinking out loud, does anyone know if this could ever be diagnosed while the person is alive? I'm not very familiar with the disease but just knowing you have it while you're alive would give people at least an opportunity to try and do something about it before it's too late.

Not a doctor. But based on what I've read and seen a diagnosis requires tissue samples of the brain and analysis through a microscope. So it might be possible with some kind of brain biopsy, given there is no treatment for it cutting open someone's head and cutting out some brain to diagnose it is pointless. Without taking tissue sample diagnosis could only be based on behavior.

> does anyone know if this could ever be diagnosed while the person is alive?

I don't believe that's possible (yet) but the good news is that several Research Institutes are said to be conducting on going research into diagnosing C.T.E while the person is still alive..

> At this time CTE can only be diagnosed after death by postmortem neuropathological analysis. Right now there is no known way to use MRI, CT, or other brain imaging methods to diagnose CTE. The CTE Center is actively conducting research aimed at learning how to diagnose CTE during life. Find out more about our research here.

Source: Boston University’s Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) Research Center => https://www.bu.edu/cte/about/frequently-asked-questions/

This article indicated Boston University is making progress using PET imaging [1].

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/new-brain-scan-leap...

I was recently talking with a neurosurgery fellow who claimed CTE is a bit of a controversial diagnosis to begin with. Not only can it only be diagnosed posthumously, but it cannot be diagnosed by autopsy alone. According to him, many brains display the pathology characteristic of CTE. What makes it CTE or not is a history of concussive/subconcussive injuries.

Of course, I may have misunderstood him and/or his opinion may not be in sync with the consensus in the field. Still, it's not something I've heard in these discussions.

Maybe with better medical tech. Stuff more like from science fiction. Various forms of 'non invasive' medical scanners becoming more common, less expensive, and linked to automated computer diagnosis (flag X for doctor/expert review) is probably the most effective route to such improvements.

Anyone know if there is a similar rash of problems or study on CTE with professional boxers? Surely they face comparable levels of head trauma throughout their training/career.

That is where it "started" so to speak: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

I have read that CTE is more closely correlated with a high number of smaller (sub-concussive) hits than any number of concussive hits. Do boxers fit this profile?

After football, I think soccer players might be next in line for CTE risk.

Yes, since the left jab to the head is a key part of a boxer's offensive foundation.

> Do boxers fit this profile?

Uhh well yeah, much more than soccer players that's for sure.

You typically throw around 50 punches in a round, with about 35% landing, typically more than half are thrown to the head, and punches which don't land (i.e., don't count in boxing rules) typically still land on the guard in front of your head and cause an impact on the head nonetheless.

In a typical 12 round fight or equivalent sparring match you tend to get hit about 200 times or so, i.e. take 100 punches to the head from people who punch for a profession.

If you've never been in a boxing gym, it's absolutely ridiculous how much harder a boxer punches versus a really strong and tough looking guy with no boxing training. In that sense it's no different from someone who's been playing a guitar for 5 years, and someone who hasn't for a single second, what they can produce is world's apart, despite punching being a seemingly natural thing anyone can do. Getting hit by a pro 100 times in about half an hour (12 rounds of 3 minutes) is absolutely terrible, and there's lots of research that shows this (as well as many famous cases of brain damage).

The top professionals fight about 40 or so times as a pro, but can easily rack up 100-200 fights during their amateur careers, all of which are preceded by by tons of sparring. Typically top fighters spar about 150 rounds prior to a pro match of 12 rounds. All in all, it's probably safe to assume a professional boxer will fight a couple thousand rounds in his life, in each of which he gets hit with on average at least 10 hard punches to the head from a professional puncher. It's an absolutely savage sport, it's hard to reconcile that with my love for the sport. (the level of this sacrifice and sports glory are so intertwined though, they make for legendary rivalries and careers)

Boxers wear protection but it doesn't really help for brain damage. Gloves were invented not for protection of the head, but rather the hands, as the hands tend to break quickly. Head gear in sparring protects a little, but that too is partly against cuts.

As someone who has boxed I can assure you that if you practice a lot you will get hit in the head many many times. We generally went decently light for punches or kicks to the head in practice for this reason. It's a pretty safe assumption that pros go harder than we did in practice so I bet they are getting hit decently hard tons

He only played 3 seasons in the NFL. I agree with the findings that continuous head trauma causes CTE, but could other things cause it as well? For someone with only 3 seasons to have that severe a case of CTE is cause for concern that there might be other things that cause it.

You are ignoring the probably like 10 years of football he played before going to NFL.

Isn't the lawsuit doing that too?

He's ignoring that intentionally, in the context of evaluating the merit of the lawsuit

probably closer to 15. Parents these days start their kids in pop warner/little league starting in 1st and 2nd grade. I find it to be asinine myself, given that there are cases of mild CTE found in high school football players...

Yes, intentionally. Each level gets much faster and the players get bigger and momentum = mass * velocity. I believe most of the CTE cases involve NFL players and it is odd that someone could have such a severe case of CTE with only 3 years of NFL. Florida was a really fast and strong team when he played, but a fraction of the NFL speed and size.

Cte is found amongst high school and college players as well.

I believe I just saw an article the other day talking about brain injury to even younger kids.

Well, if the only way to detect CTE is after death, unless the player killed themselves young, they would have to wait years and years until after the person played in high school. With that much time passed, many variables are introduced.

It's concerning to me because I played in high school.

Right but your sample size is pretty big. Like I’m pretty sure the other factors can be controlled for. Dont take my word for it, these are the general conclusions.

Unfortunately people die in HS. So sure, if someone played HS ball, then stopped playing, lived until 60, and got CTE, it would be hard to say it was from HS ball, however when someone dies at 18, and is positive for CTE, that's pretty definitive.

I read somewhere that even one concussion can triple the likelihood of someone suffering from depression later in life. That's pretty scary stuff. Our heads are not meant to be banged against things, so I would think that goes double for a developing brain.

https://www.gq.com/story/the-concussion-diaries-high-school-...

Actually, studies found that pee-wee football players get hit with the same G-Forces as the pros (13 to 15 Gs). I can only surmise the same was true for high school and college. I was at an EMS conference when they cited the study. The one below is the only one I could find though. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10439-012-0530-...

You are also ignoring how hard or often the hits were in those 3 years (not mention the X number of years before the NFL).

There's a hypothesized link between C.T.E. and violence.

http://www.traumaticbraininjury.net/does-chronic-traumatic-e...

1. Murder sucks. CTE sucks. NFL sucks.

2. His girlfriend should not get a single dime. She was complicit in dumping evidence for Hernandez. I don't know how it would work but their daughter should be the only one who gets to touch any money from this case.

3. Someone tell me otherwise but I thought initially the reason Hernandez killed himself was because he thought that his death would payout some money to his girlfriend and his daughter.

4. Going back I don't see any severe head injuries that could have led to concussions. Not saying CTE is impossible but I wonder if the NFL could argue that...

Severe head injuries are not required for concussions.

I've heard of people getting small concussions from riding jet skis across choppy water

for 4, you'll have to include all injuries sustained during practice too. I don't know the medical stuff about it, but I don't believe CTE requires injuries severe enough that it puts him out of commission, just constantly repeated ones. Even if they'd be below the threshold where you'd normally report on them, i.e. getting hit repeated and being dazed from it over and over.

His daughter shouldn't get anything either.

His gf can get a job and raise the kid like any other single parent.

You don't need to suffer a major concussion to get CTE. Linemen for example still suffer from it and it's believed that the tens of thousands of "micro-concussive" events (ball snaps, rush forward, hit defensive lineman) they accrue in a lifetime of playing football add up to be just as bad or worse than suffering multiple major concussions. Tight ends like Hernandez are often used in blocking situations so he could have suffered something similar.

3) I was under the impression that if he passed while still pending appeal, he technically became "innocent." Meaning that the money owed to him by the Patriots would go to his family. I've heard the theory, never heard it verified though.

Yes I heard this is state law there and the prosecution was forced to drop the case(s) that had not been finally settled.

I understand the reasons for this rule but in this case it's infuriating

At this point the surprising headline should be when NFL players are found to NOT have C.T.E. I really don't understand how the NFL is getting away with this so easily. I guess they have good PR? People just like football so much that they are willing to ignore it?

the legal and medical question that comes up is "when did it start?" Pee-wee football? high school? college? certainly before they get to the NFL. While I don't defend them for hiding the issue for so long, at this point, now that its common knowledge, its pretty much like boxing or MMA. Its people's choice to do it. The consequences are plain to see, and still they continue.

Others may be in the situation that football (and the incurring injuries) are all they have, or all they know and that maybe its too late to turn back or 'fix' the problem. its not just the NFL. It's also the NCAA which makes far more money off these kids than the NFL.

>>Those who died after the settlement was approved in April 2015 are not eligible for an award, but Hernandez’s family could argue for an exemption.

An exemption should only be made if the money goes to the families of the victims.

Why does the family of a murderer get a monetary reward? Even if it is proven the the CTE somehow cause him to commit the murders (which is a long shot), why would his family reap the benefits of the settlement?

Not to mention that (IIRC) several of the murders he's thought to have committed occurred before he'd ever played in the NFL.

I don't think it's about if CTE caused him to commit the murders, it's about if CTE caused him to commit suicide. Since CTA can only be diagnosed posthumously, I can see the argument that he had CTE before 2015 but was not properly diagnosed despite the clear risk of CTE to NFL players.

I see your point, unfortunately it will be hard to parse what the extent of the CTE was and how it affected him in combination with the results of his trial.

I just know that if I were in the shoes of the victims families, it would be crushing to see the family of the murderer walk away with a payout.

I agree, it's a difficult argument but I think regardless of Hernandez's guilt it's clear that the NFL has not done enough about CTE.

As for his family, I don't see why his family should not be compensated by the NFL for his CTE, regardless of his crimes. If my scumbag family member was killed because of negligence by their employer, I would still want their employer to compensate our family... two wrongs don't make a right, and we should still hold the NFL accountable.

It has nothing to do with murder and everything to do with suicide. The family is arguing that CTE caused or contributed to his suicide.

If he wasn't put in jail with a lifetime sentence would he still have committed suicide?

Maybe. Maybe not. There's no was to know his thoughts leading up to the suicide.

For a civil case you don't have to prove it, you just have to be able to convince a jury that it's probably true.

> Why does the family of a murderer get a monetary reward? Even if it is proven the the CTE somehow cause him to commit the murders (which is a long shot), why would his family reap the benefits of the settlement?

Because the NFL is the murderer. Aaron was made ill by them to the extent he is not responsible for his actions. This is before you even get to the suicide.

They mean to raise the concern of the family receiving that money, instead of the state or a CTE research group, for example.

Good questions. The NFL has enough money for everyone affected.

How is the NFL responsible for those murders?

He didn't start in the NFL until 2010, after he had already been involved in a double shooting and bar fight.

Also, there is no direct evidence that CTE leads to murdering people.

Because his daughter, by being deprived of her father's presence and income, was also hurt by the actions that were quite possibly induced by the CTE he suffered. And while no one can know CTE caused Hernandez to kill people, it is known that CTE causes cognitive impairment, impulsive behavior, and emotional instability; aggression is a suspected symptom [1]. I don't think the idea that CTE made Hernandez' bad behavior more likely and/or more severe is easy to dismiss out of hand.

[1] http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-trauma...

I'm not sure how employable Aaron was without the NFL.

Other sports perhaps? He really was a phenomenal athlete. His seasons with the patriots really did suggest he'd be an all time great TE.

He could lose a bunch of weight and lose to Floyd Mayweather. :)

Hernandez would never have gotten out of prison, and certainly not while still capable of playing ball professionally. How much could his income possible have been? The argument that he could have been a wealthy pro athlete without suffering CTE if only the NFL had done things differently, seems to contradict itself in several ways.

>Why does the family of a murderer get a monetary reward?

Well, for one thing, unlike North Korea, we don't punish people's innocent family members for their crimes.

How is not awarding millions of dollars for no reason a punishment?

If they would otherwise be entitled to the award, then restricting that award is equivalent to punishment by fine of the same degree.

>Why does the family of a murderer get a monetary reward?

He is suggesting even with a settlement, the family shouldn't get any because of what Hernandez' crimes were. Without a will, immediate family is the default recipient of that sort of thing.

Well it wouldn't be "no reason", would it?

So the Hernandez family's ability to sue should be linked to what kind of person Aaron was? How does that makes sense?

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